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Total Members Voted: 69

[Halfling]

I'm not going to vote - just pointing out that if you like, you can also think that both are true in a way. One is the gods' perspective ("I've known Apollon since god middle school when he got into trouble for shoplifting ambrosia. The mortals think he's great but god he's such a self-indulgent mooch"), the other is the way they present themselves to the universe/mortal theologians view them.

@Halfling: As cool as the trolls are, the Treelords are fearsome enough guardians. When one shows up, they are nigh indestructible and raise their elven minions ad infinitum. The reason tree-cap diplomacy isn't a threat currently is because the game doesn't use it unless you fix it with DFhack. Still, we could use an underground civ...

Meh, elves will always be elves and people will be dismissive. The fact that they're naked, never hostile by default and have no equipment doesn't help. If someone ever manages to make them hostile, any resurrected elves will attempt to kill the treelord (who still keeps resurrecting them) because the modder used ANIMATE instead of RESURRECT and treelords are living.

Also, I thought tree cap diplomacy doesn't work because elves don't have a diplomat position. At least that's what it says in the bug report. I specifically added one to fix that.

But either way, they can be changed if you think they would fit in better in a different role, any use you have for any part suits me. More variety in hostiles and bandits might be good, as the only bandit groups that you get at this time should be spider centaurs (and very rarely formics); lizardfolk are local bandits but don't have dedicated banditry and halflings are never bandits. So trolls could definitely be good for that.

[WillowLuman]

Well, guess Elves need a fix. A little bandit variety wouldn't hurt, though.

Do we have permission to alter elves?

[Halfling]

Yes - BFEL gave permission to alter them, so long as you respect the original intent, a long time ago.

[WillowLuman]

Alright.

In other news, my civ is ready for a release, provided 8 error lines is tolerable. If not, I'll keep trying fixes.

[kero42]

I'm not going to vote - just pointing out that if you like, you can also think that both are true in a way. One is the gods' perspective ("I've known Apollon since god middle school when he got into trouble for shoplifting ambrosia. The mortals think he's great but god he's such a self-indulgent mooch"), the other is the way they present themselves to the universe/mortal theologians view them.

Yeah, leaving the thing somewhat open for interpretation would probably be best. That way we could have a varying level of silliness/seriousness for roleplay purposes.

Regarding the trolls, I wasn't too interested in the idea at first due to assuming treelords already did that, but having read the whole post, I'm somewhat intrigued. The idea of them having a primitive language appeals to me. Whether we keep their tree limit function or not, I certainly think they should be included in some way or form.

@Hugo: Looking forward to seeing what they're like.

[Putnam]

-snip-

I like this, I like this a lot.

I quite like this one too.

I third this

Fourthded.

Fifthed.

Further support that what Leibowitz said is the lore.

While I do like this as well, I feel that it is too silly to be the "official" lore of the worlds.

I like silly just as much as serious. I'll probably ditch Lesser Creators for this :V

[Halfling]

@Hugo: You can post the error lines for help, but it shouldn't go in so long as it generates error content. But are you positive that the feathers fix or setting tissue thickness to 1 wouldn't work? I could swear I've had properly formatted things that it is impossible to hit.

[WillowLuman]

If it's not acceptable, I'll set the thickness to 1 and make the shape "FEATHERS", as this at least allows edged attacks to pass right through. Blunt attacks still connect at 1 thickness. Here's the error log for explicit 0 thickness:

*** Error(s) finalizing the creature PSIONIC_HUGOL
PSIONIC_HUGOL:NORMAL:mind: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:NORMAL:mental grip: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:NORMAL:mental grip: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:NORMAL:mental grip: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:MASTER:mind: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:MASTER:mental grip: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:MASTER:mental grip: No tissue thickness
PSIONIC_HUGOL:MASTER:mental grip: No tissue thickness

[Gnorm]

It should be noted that, if any new tree-loving diplomats are made, the halflings will not see them at all, as there aren't any noble positions in the halfling government.

[Halfling]

@Hugo: Okay, well, hm. What happens if you set the tissue thickness to 0? Can you suppress it with other erroneous handling of tissues, such as setting the tissue, then changing it to something else that doesn't exist or moving it to an unreasonable position with one of the tokens to edit tissues? This is an issue of keeping the errorlog clean only, and something like that might work because many of the "higher" modding functions simply don't generate an errorlog even when they should. If it's impossible then maybe it could be considered to also just remove them for development and add for upload (that needs to be easy though). But that still may hinder bug reporting if people eventually don't know which is supposed to be in the errorlog.

@Gnorm: Halfling mayors have [RESPONSIBILITY:RECEIVE_DIPLOMATS] for this purpose.

Regarding the trolls, I wasn't too interested in the idea at first due to assuming treelords already did that, but having read the whole post, I'm somewhat intrigued. The idea of them having a primitive language appeals to me. Whether we keep their tree limit function or not, I certainly think they should be included in some way or form.

Their language also very occasionally generates new universe and place names such as "Talenetherworld". And I just met chief Shack Redsboss Biggestunder Sniffer in adventure mode. He had a crown and earrings made of people.

I think the best function is that you'd be able to fight a blind peg-legged troll head hunter and his variously crippled but fearsome minions in adventurer mode. I've had great feedback on how much that adds personality to the adventure in the disease mod, and these are even more varied. That'll work whether they're tree cap diplomats or bandits or anything.

Basically, once I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tEzuxkkGyWQ , which they're looted from, I immediately thought of DF goblins, and I knew I must mod them a little or a lot to be more fun before I can be at peace. And then I figured that instead of making a vanilla mod I could add more content to DFFS.

[WillowLuman]

That is the error log for [BP_LAYERS:BY_CATEGORY:PSI:THOUGHT:0] in the bdp. I'll try one of your solutions, though.

Do you mean select the tissue from within the creature and change it? Can that even be done?

[Halfling]

Yes, you can do that. The troll raws contain a fully working example of removing and replacing an already added tissue. These tags help with editing tissue:

http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Creature_token#Important_Related_Tokens

[WillowLuman]

Sadly, replacing the tissue with somthing that doesn't exist results in the game just selecting another tissue in the creature, in this case the cloth of the robes.

Oh, one more question. If a creature's civ has clothing but only certain castes have [EQUIPS], will only those castes wear it or will everyone wear it regardless? Ditto for weaponry

[Halfling]

Edit: was mistaken. A quick test with the various troll castes shows that if one caste equips and the others don't, then that one caste will be equipped and the others not. But they will be able to use equipment that's available, they just don't start with it. To prevent that, the body parts must not have the tokens related to equipping items instead.

[WillowLuman]

Any creature is able to use weapons and wear stuff if they have the right BP's, but they have to be playable to do so. It shan't be a problem.

I notice there are no robes, so I have added them.