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Total Members Voted: 69

[Halfling]

You can add risks to mining it otherwise - can make it randomly turn miners into demons, which is one way how we could easily have hell-associated demons, or even curse your entire fort if you try to process it (10% chance of said reaction producing gas that causes syndrome: can do interaction: no targeting parameters: immediate: add syndrome:    [CE_SKILL_ROLL_ADJUST:PERC:0:PERC_ON:20:START:0] (holy crap)). Such things are pretty much mutually exclusive with undiggable since you probably wouldn't want them to happen every time.

[Dorsidwarf]

Here's an idea: make the Adamantine replacement inflict some foul, easily-spread syndrome until mined/refined.
That should make people cautious about breaching hell.

[StLeibowitz]

Perhaps release some sort of contagious disease, if we're going the syndrome route - random chance of one or more interaction-spreadable diseases, to be created by whomever cares to do so.

[Aseaheru]

What, like warpstone or coaldust in masterwork? Sounds funish. But I still think making it harder will help. I mean really, Copper?

[StLeibowitz]

I do not believe there is a way to set what tier/type of metal is allowed to break a tile. Otherwise, that'd be a good idea.

EDIT: Also, similar to warpstone/coal dust, except the syndrome could be spread by those afflicted. A plague-bearing rock, to replace demons.

[Halfling]

Perhaps release some sort of contagious disease, if we're going the syndrome route - random chance of one or more interaction-spreadable diseases, to be created by whomever cares to do so.

As it happens I have a mod to do exactly that if desired. Copying from it would still be treif but can take the idea...

Basically you want a syndrome that causes a creature to do two kinds of interactions: 1. add symptoms to itself and 2. spread the aforementioned syndrome to others. That way you have a propagating syndrome that adds symptoms (with desired time parameters). Make sure the syndrome does NOT keep spreading to creatures again and again but instead passes like a wave leaving a permanent flux of symptoms, creatures constantly spreading it to each other causes huge amounts of lag.

I personally think supernatural things like demons, angels and curses would be more appropriate when in the vicinity of hell though, diseases could rather be something that rats or animals can spread (or civilized creatures like migrants as in my mod).

[StLeibowitz]

Well, Pestilence is popularly held as one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, which comes from the rather religious book of Revelations, so I'd say it fits with demons.

Possibly could go with other Horsemen references - Pestilence=some kind of virulent plague, Famine=wasting disease or a curse, War=adding OPPOSED_TO_LIFE and boosting strength, Death=turning victims into zombies that can turn others into zombies.

[Halfling]

Mm... is this "warpstone" by Meph something that turns people into demons already? I still think it would be more cool if, if you're going to do horsemen, the stone did actually turn the miner into the zombifying horseman Death so you could deal with him up close and personal before proceeding.

[TheClam]

Warpstone just makes your miners really damn sick if I remember rightly. No, something like having the 'adamantine' generate the aforementioned uber-material by turning your miners into it and making them homicidal sounds very... Bay12.

[WillowLuman]

I was just thinking that rather than making it another relatively generic "this metal has really good material attributes" version of adamantine, it would be nice to have an incentive to breach hell for some other reason (particularly since, let's be honest, there are probably going to be several supermetals in this mod by the time you're done). One idea I was having was that rather than the boulders dropped being workable into a metal, instead you could put in a reaction to convert the boulders into artifacts. I don't know how possible that is, but it seems like it should be so long as there is a way to control the quality of a product from a reaction. This property would be sufficiently unique to encourage breaching hell, particularly if there were some way to control which artifact you got back. I know that I, for one, would be pretty tempted by the lure of indestructible doors, unjammable mechanisms, full suits of artifact armor etc. But, as I say it's just an idea, you're running the show and should take it where you want. If you do like it, I'll start trying to find out if it's even possible. I'm not sure, but I think some of the reactions in Masterwork do something similar?

Can't make a reaction make artifacts. With dfhack I'm sure it would be possible, but do we want to include that as the component? We may, it does improve the experience with all the bugfixes and so.

The "vanilla" way of doing such would be with syndromes, reactions and interactions. Some possibilities would be creating a set of "reward" items making which requires this material (such as a sword with contact area 1 and speed 9001, armor which covers everything possible and can be worn on top of anything, super-shield, incredibly valuable doodad, "purity seal" which sets paladinism fort-wide via a syndrome-interaction-combo or "cursed seal" which sets vampirism fort-wide similarly), setting a creature's attributes to something very desirable (4x creativity? Speed 1?) temporarily or permanently, body transformation... it can also be applied to other creatures by interactions (mining it increases your fort population's creativity by 10% for every stone mined).

I'm sure that if we agree it can have some great reward then you can come up with lots

I'm sorry, but making the Adamantine-like material undiggable is COMPLETELY POINTLESS.

Why? Because the hardcoded Semi-molten Rock is already undiggable, and requires the engineering method to dig through. Digging through the special hollow tube veins isn't exactly a cheat, because getting through that way spawns dozens/hundreds of hell denizens directly underneath.

We don't need a gas to transform the miner into a horde of demons, because a horde of demons invades by default when you breach Hell. We don't have any RCP demons, but we do have assimilating shades.

[StLeibowitz]

Warpstone is basically a rock you mine that gives some minor illness symptoms - nausea and fever, I think. I usually play Masterwork with it off, but I've poked through those raws.

Having the rock turn the victim into Death Himself would probably be cooler if the syndrome didn't affect everyone in range Having numerous copies of Death galloping about might be a tad more inconvenient than a clown car.

I'm sorry, but making the Adamantine-like material undiggable is COMPLETELY POINTLESS.

Why? Because the hardcoded Semi-molten Rock is already undiggable, and requires the engineering method to dig through. Digging through the special hollow tube veins isn't exactly a cheat, because getting through that way spawns dozens/hundreds of hell denizens directly underneath.

We don't need a gas to transform the miner into a horde of demons, because a horde of demons invades by default when you breach Hell. We don't have any RCP demons, but we do have assimilating shades.

There are no random demons, and those are the only thing that appears in the clown car. The shadows will only wander in from the map edge after the fact. We need something else to make breaching Hell challenging and fun - like undiggable spires that require halfling ingenuity to crack open, or spire-stone that unleashes the Horsemen on the hamlet.

[kopout]

Mm... generally when you are unable to do something by the normal workflow (materials and templates -> plans -> creatures) then the smarter thing to do is probably look for an error somewhere in the previous step rather than try to come up with hacks to make it work regardless e.g. start defining tissues inside creatures, because we do know the "normal" way works if everything goes correctly.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

/fbsd forums

Not that you aren't allowed to do it some other way, it just may be easier

I looked for errors, a lot! I just didn't find the error. Though in my defence encounter problem-> look for solution-> find none-> invent ridiculously over complicated workaround is more dwarfy 

Edit: you could make it so the the stone makes your miners into statues made out of it. OR, they get turned into things that can turn other halflings into tube stone. A kind of "you brake it you become the replacement" deal. Or even [OPPOSED_TO_LIFE]  monstrosities that turn the corpses of their victumes into more of them selves and produce a bar of uber-metal when killed.

[Halfling]

That's probably an incorrect quote as those posts aren't really discussing that aspect...

>We don't need a gas to transform the miner into a horde of demons

Oh, but then, we don't really NEED magma traps and lethal giant bee swarms, do we?

Srsly though I believe the shades don't invade your fort due to not being randomly generated, it was discussed earlier. RCP can be enabled as soon as we have alternative RCP stuff though, why not. It'll require switching to a custom .exe/binary though (and using that Russian program to edit the Windows version), or for linux, alternatively and preferably providing a script that edits your DF binary to use the new stuff.

Having the rock turn the victim into Death Himself would probably be cooler if the syndrome didn't affect everyone in range Having numerous copies of Death galloping about might be a tad more inconvenient than a clown car.

No no. It would make a random demon. You'd have Death, Famine and Pestilence...
Also how often do you have several people mining DEEP_SPECIALs? But if it's a legit concern there should be only one it's just a matter of syndrome writing. Make the syndrome cause a random delay in how soon you can do a TARGETING interaction targeting one creature (can be self), then the creature targeted by TARGETING immediately disables the syndrome from all others and then transforms.

[TheClam]

This whole "four horsemen" thing does sound very interesting. I still like the idea of the material you would otherwise get straight from the colums actually being from the tissues in the demons produced by the spire. Perhaps there is a way to be more subtle about this, though. Have the first person infected hang around for a while with the interaction infecting other people, then at some (preferably as unpredictable as possible) point after you mined the first piece of the spire, everybody who got infected turns at once and all hell breaks loose. That sounds to me like some serious high-level !!FUN!!

[StLeibowitz]

@Halfling

You wouldn't have to have several people mining, just several in proximity - say, one mining and a few running down to fetch the mined stone or something, though I guess if it's just going to explode into gas that may not be as much of an issue. Or a player unfamiliar with what we've done to Hell could have the army standing by when the mining starts. Any number of scenarios.

The idea of an interaction solution didn't really occur to me, though that could work, I suppose. Have I mentioned how interactions and I don't really get along well?


@TheClam

The horsemen-demon-transformations and special-material-tissue ideas aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Halfling becomes Death demon -> Kill death-demon -> Harvest bones for material. Or something.