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[Frumple]

Nah, there's no limit save whatever conceptual max number of units in play the engine has or whatever logistical bottleneck that may be involved (iirc wolves still need food, ferex). If something like a swan herd or werewolf fills up their command with freespawn, they'll just start dumping the excess into the garrison. I... think it's possible to max out a garrison, but it's going to take multiple hundreds of turns with dozens of callers involved. I don't think I've ever actually managed it in D4. Same dealio with reanimation and longdead or whatev', basically, just a different means of getting the critter.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Wolves need food, but also have forest/mountain survival, so theoretically you can rack up a considerable "pack" in a defensive position.

Do garrison units enter battle despite having no commander?

[chaoticag]

Commanders only move units, grant some morale, and place formations and orders. As long as your side has one commander, those units will fight, including the garrison. So on a province with PD, those units will fight even if no commander is present besides the PD officer.

[E. Albright]

...if there's no fort. If there's a fort, they hide inside unless herded out.

Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.

bane venom charm   

Yup. Ghouls are the best fort-fillers for a reason. In fact, they're quite happy to have some BVCs inside the fort to make sieging it a bit more demanding...

[EnigmaticHat]

Nah, there's no limit save whatever conceptual max number of units in play the engine has or whatever logistical bottleneck that may be involved (iirc wolves still need food, ferex). If something like a swan herd or werewolf fills up their command with freespawn, they'll just start dumping the excess into the garrison. I... think it's possible to max out a garrison, but it's going to take multiple hundreds of turns with dozens of callers involved. I don't think I've ever actually managed it in D4. Same dealio with reanimation and longdead or whatev', basically, just a different means of getting the critter.

Technically, you can max out a world.  Once the unit numbers get sufficiently high the game will start deleting them.

[Kagus]

...if there's no fort. If there's a fort, they hide inside unless herded out.

Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.

bane venom charm   

Yup. Ghouls are the best fort-fillers for a reason. In fact, they're quite happy to have some BVCs inside the fort to make sieging it a bit more demanding...

Am I the only one who prophetizes an early ghoul commander when playing as LA Ulm, so I can get some freespawn to go with my freespawn?

Also, I wonder if the ghoul guardians actually came about as kind of a reference to players using ghouls for castle defense.

[E. Albright]

Spoiler: NationGen 0.6.20 patch, if anyone is interested (click to show/hide)

https://github.com/elmokki/nationgen/releases/tag/0.6.20

[Frank2368]

Wow, that looks cool. It's kind of awesome how they are able to make the style look so similar to the original game's while being all randomised.

BTW, what happens if two opposing armies move into each other's previous territory? Do they fight or just switch positions?

[cider]

Wow, that looks cool. It's kind of awesome how they are able to make the style look so similar to the original game's while being all randomised.

BTW, what happens if two opposing armies move into each other's previous territory? Do they fight or just switch positions?

They fight, unless at least one army is sneaking.

[Culise]

Not always, actually.  While a battle is what one will typically see, it's not actually the only outcome possible.  The manual is a bit fuzzy on the details regarding the calculation of the relative probabilities of such a circumstance, but...

Likewise, if you give an army the order to move into an adjacent enemy province, and on the same turn an army in that province gets the order to move into yours, then one of three things can happen:

• There is a battle in the enemy province between the two armies;
• There is a battle in your province between the two armies;
• The armies miss one another and exchange places.

Which event occurs depends on the size of the armies in question and the terrain involved.

I assume they'll only miss each other in rough terrain and if the forces involved are small, though; I've personally never actually seen it happen.

[Kagus]

Yeah, I've experienced army-swap once or twice. Bloody annoying.  That said, the game doesn't actually calculate movements simultaneously, but rather follows an alphabetical order as to which nations move first.

So if an Abysian army moves into a province occupied by an army from Man, but the Man army has a move scheduled for a different province, the Abysian army will move first and the Man army will get interrupted and engaged.  Likewise, if a Man army is attacking an Abysian army, the Abysian army will get to move first, leaving an empty province for the Man army to march into.


At least, that's what's explained by the manual and the in-game help.

[Culise]

Interesting.  I've never actually heard of moves being run alphabetically.  The manual claims turn resolution is simultaneous, and in the case of two armies from different nations entering the province of another nation, it indicates the first army to arrive is determined randomly rather than by alphabet order.  Moreover, it indicates that it only determines which army arrives first in the case where three or more sides are present in a province at the end of the turn, and not at the time each movement order is resolved.  In large part, what the case being described by Abysia and Man relies upon is what sort of province is being targeted for the move by the non-attacking army: friendly or unfriendly.  Apropos of the great big turn resolution sequence list, friendly movement is always resolved before regular movement, and all movements are resolved before movement-related battles are processed.  After that comes any castle storms, random event battles, battles from magic item/monster effects (Chalice, hi-yo), and discovered sneaks, in that order, and before all of this (even friendly movement) is movement through magical rituals and consequent battles, but that's likely irrelevant. 

In fact, it seemed so curious that I thought I'd run a quick test, since it's fairly trivial to set this condition up.  Pure vanilla, no mods.  Map is Talis, since it's teeny, with Abysia and Man the two players.  Pretenders are irrelevant.  It took three turns to move both armies into position over the bridge, facing each other.  I ran three tests with each, which is far from statistically significant, but I'm lazy that way.

Case 1: Abysian army moves into province occupied by army from Man; Man army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 1A: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1B: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1C: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.

Case 2: Man's army moves into province occupied by army from Abysia; Abysian army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 2A: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2B: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2C: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.

If someone's more bored than I, they can probably play around with the save as they wish, though I can't imagine why. 

EDIT: Struck out a false statement from my own presumptions, but otherwise left it present for posterity.  In fact, it doesn't actually matter; if all movement is resolved before all combats except in the case of two armies marching into each other directly, then moving into a friendly or unfriendly province is irrelevant, because it will still be processed before combat begins.

[Sean Mirrsen]

Interesting.  I've never actually heard of moves being run alphabetically.  The manual claims turn resolution is simultaneous, and in the case of two armies from different nations entering the province of another nation, it indicates the first army to arrive is determined randomly rather than by alphabet order.  Moreover, it indicates that it only determines which army arrives first in the case where three or more sides are present in a province at the end of the turn, and not at the time each movement order is resolved.  In large part, what the case being described by Abysia and Man relies upon is what sort of province is being targeted for the move by the non-attacking army: friendly or unfriendly.  Apropos of the great big turn resolution sequence list, friendly movement is always resolved before regular movement, and all movements are resolved before movement-related battles are processed.  After that comes any castle storms, random event battles, battles from magic item/monster effects (Chalice, hi-yo), and discovered sneaks, in that order, and before all of this (even friendly movement) is movement through magical rituals and consequent battles, but that's likely irrelevant. 

In fact, it seemed so curious that I thought I'd run a quick test, since it's fairly trivial to set this condition up.  Pure vanilla, no mods.  Map is Talis, since it's teeny, with Abysia and Man the two players.  Pretenders are irrelevant.  It took three turns to move both armies into position over the bridge, facing each other.  I ran three tests with each, which is far from statistically significant, but I'm lazy that way.

Case 1: Abysian army moves into province occupied by army from Man; Man army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 1A: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1B: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.
Result 1C: Man's army moves away.  Abysia takes undefended province.

Case 2: Man's army moves into province occupied by army from Abysia; Abysian army moves into different (independent) province.
Result 2A: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2B: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.
Result 2C: Abysia's army moves away. Man takes undefended province.

If someone's more bored than I, they can probably play around with the save as they wish, though I can't imagine why. 

EDIT: Struck out a false statement from my own presumptions, but otherwise left it present for posterity.  In fact, it doesn't actually matter; if all movement is resolved before all combats except in the case of two armies marching into each other directly, then moving into a friendly or unfriendly province is irrelevant, because it will still be processed before combat begins.

Not all movement is processed before combat begins.

Armies that move between friendly provinces have a high priority, so to speak, perhaps a bonus to the DRN in game terms, in any case they tend to move first and not be interrupted. Armies that attack other provinces though, apparently just roll DRN, maybe modified by army size or move rate or something.

Case in point: this current Bay12 game (round 425) I had a situation where my Pangaean forces were converging from 3 different provinces into one enemy province, to attack the Ulm force there. Ulm was, at the same time, attacking one of those provinces.

Result: Two of my groups attacked an empty (well, full of PD) province that Ulm had just left, and the Ulm army attacked the third group's province, with that group still in it. So the move order was: Ulm (met group #3), Pangaea group #1, Pangaea group #2. Because Ulm got the first move and group #3 probably failed an opposed roll, they did battle on my land, and the other two groups did not encounter them.

[E. Albright]

Armies moving between friendly provinces move before those moving from friendly to hostile provinces. Period, full stop. Look at the turn resolution sequence table on page 81 of the manual; friendly movement is phase 21, and other movement is phase 22. Battle resolution from movement is 23, and castle storming is 24. (Plus you can also get battles on, hmm... 10, 11, 18, 19,[ 23, 24,] 27, 29, and 43.)

Generally, the smaller army will defend if both move to mirrored provinces, though yes, both can miss each or the larger can defend. This means it's a bad idea to try to converge a number of small forces directly into an enemy province unless you're really sure its occupiers are not going to attack or the likely target of said occupiers has a bigger army attacking during the convergence. And yes, opposed DRN is probably how this is determined; I expect that ties would account for the rare "armies passing".

[Culise]

Not all movement is processed before combat begins.

Armies that move between friendly provinces have a high priority, so to speak, perhaps a bonus to the DRN in game terms, in any case they tend to move first and not be interrupted. Armies that attack other provinces though, apparently just roll DRN, maybe modified by army size or move rate or something.

Case in point: this current Bay12 game (round 425) I had a situation where my Pangaean forces were converging from 3 different provinces into one enemy province, to attack the Ulm force there. Ulm was, at the same time, attacking one of those provinces.

Result: Two of my groups attacked an empty (well, full of PD) province that Ulm had just left, and the Ulm army attacked the third group's province, with that group still in it. So the move order was: Ulm (met group #3), Pangaea group #1, Pangaea group #2. Because Ulm got the first move and group #3 probably failed an opposed roll, they did battle on my land, and the other two groups did not encounter them.

First of all, I must preface this with the statement that I am not an expert on the nitty-gritty of the movement or combat systems.  However, I'm fairly certain there are no "bonuses" for friendly moves, because there is nothing contested between friendly and other regular movements.  They're processed in entirely different phases of the turn resolution process.  As such, they don't tend to move first, but rather simply move first.  I had not done this originally due to the sheer length of the list and since Kagus was already familiar with it, but since there's apparently some confusion regarding the truncated turn order sequence list I wrote up, I'll post the entire thing.  It can also be found on pages 80-83 of the manual, and it is very useful to at least have a familiar passing with. 

Spoiler: Turn resolution sequence (click to show/hide)

All players’ turn orders are resolved simultaneously when a turn is hosted. During the hosting process,
the game resolves orders in the following order:
1. Send messages Messages sent by using the Send Messages button are dispatched. This means that gold, gems, and items are always sent, because everything that could stop this from happening occurs later in the turn.
2. Research Mages perform their research. Even if a mage is assassinated or otherwise killed, he will contribute his research points to his nation that turn.
3. Empowerment Increased magic paths due to Empowerment are conferred here.
4. Recruitment New units and commanders are recruited. This means that recruits will always be available during the turn, as nothing that happens beforehand
can stop them.
5. Forge items New items are forged and placed in their nation’s magic item inventory.
6. Preach Priests preach the word of their god, and dominion is adjusted accordingly.
7. Heretic preaching Heretics, insane commanders and commanders with shattered soul preach.
8. Claim thrones Thrones of Ascension are claimed now.
9. Magic rituals All mages cast their rituals in a random order.
10. Magic battles All battles caused by magic are resolved. For example, commanders taken away by Wind Ride or teleporting to an enemy province fight now.
11. Lost in other planes If a unit becomes lost in another plane, it happens now. This includes resolving battles fought in other planes.
12. Site searches Magic site searches are resolved.
13. Prophets Prophets are declared.
14. Call God Priests call their gods who have been banished.
15. Awakening Pretenders awaken (dormant or imprisoned)
16. Blood hunting The hunt for blood slaves takes place.
17. Horrors Units are visited by Horrors now, if such a misfortune should befall them.
18. Assassinations Assassination attempts are resolved. The battles are fought immediately.
19. Raid Units with the Raid order perform that here.
20. Relinquish province Commanders with the Relinquish Province order will relinquish the province to any non-stealthed allied commander already present in the
same province.
21. Friendly movement All movement ending in a friendly province takes place now. If you are trying to get to a friendly province before an enemy does, you will do it if you are not stopped by an event that takes place in steps 1 through 11.
22. Other movement All other movement, including Break Siege, takes place.
23. Resolve battles All battle resolution from movement happens here.
24. Castle storming Castles are stormed and battles resolved.
25. Global enchantments Global enchantments take effect on the world. Note that the casting takes place during the Rituals step (9), though.
26. Random events Like it says. This is where those Fortune/Misfortune events happen.
27. Resolve any battles Battles caused by these events happen now.
28. Magic items/monsters Special effects from magic items (or monsters) take place. The items themselves are forged during the Forge step (5), though. If any of these effects result in any battles, they are resolved now.
29. Sneak discovery Stealthy units have been discovered! If so, they fight now for their lives.
30. Change besieger If two allies are besieging the same castle, the one who is besieging is decided now. Larger armies take precedence.
31. Building construction Fortresses, temples, and labs are built (or demolished).
32. Special orders Special order like Reanimate or Summon Allies are performed. Thus, allies summoned during a turn will not be available for that turn’s battles.
33. Pillage The Pillage order increases unrest and kills population.
34. Income All nations collect income for their provinces. Note that this comes after Pillage, meaning that if you pillage a province you conquered, you will gain reduced income from it, or perhaps no income at all.
35. Unrest alterations Changes in unrest from dominion, scales, and patrolling are reflected.
36. Starvation Units without supplies suffer starvation effects. This means that the first turn an army goes without supplies, it will fight its battles without starvation effects, since all battles occur in previous steps.
37. Upkeep / Desertion Unit upkeep is paid for. Note that this is after income is collected for the turn. Desertion happens now as well.
38. Dominion spread All dominion spread (for whatever reason) is conducted now.
39. Dominion effects Special effects of dominion (population death, insanity, spreading heat or cold etc.) are applied.
40. Site effects Magic sites spread disease, unrest, and the like, if they have such an effect.
41. Overpopulation A rare occurrence: if there are over 150,000 units in the world, some of the most numerous ones will be killed to keep the game running smoothly.
42. Aging Units age.
43. Resolve battles Any leftover battles caused by previous events are resolved.
44. Heal / Disease All units regain lost hit points, unless they are diseased, in which case they suffer more damage instead and may incur more afflictions.
45. Insanity Units may go insane, from certain dominion or other effects.
46. Mercenaries Mercenaries are bought or maintained.
47. New random heroes Heroes may appear at a nation's capital gates.
48. Kill lone units Lone units (non-commanders) in enemy provinces are killed. If there are units without commanders inside enemy territory they will be killed here to prevent them from making any pointless attacks.
49. Reclaim provinces If a fort does not own the province it is in and it is not under siege, it will take ownership of the province. This can happen in team games where the province and the fort might have different owners from the same team. This step is resolved in favor of the owner of the fort.
50. Scouting New scouting reports are generated for each player.
51. Elimination Players without any provinces or dominion are eliminated from the game.
52. Victory If a victory condition is fulfilled, the game declares a winner and ends.
53. Update stats Hall of Fame and scoregraphs are updated.
54. Heroic abilities Units gain and improve heroic abilities.
55. Reduce PD Province defense is reduced if the population cannot support the current level. At least 10 population is required for each point of province defense.
56. Aftermath The game validates orders and items, changes shapes if necessary, places killed immortals back on the map, etc.

Though Sean and Kagus are expert at the game, worthwhile notes for those reading along who aren't quite experts at the game yet:

• This is why magical movement and/or remote summons is so effective at stopping raiding parties: rituals for movement or summoning (9) are processed and battles resolved (10) before raiding parties can move (22).  Otherwise, you need to guess where the raiding party will attack.
• Reinforcement is highly helpful on the defense, because all friendly moves (21) are conducted before any attacks into unfriendly provinces can occur (22).  By the same token, if you're attacking into an area where several large enemy armies are in adjacent provinces, expect the possibility that they may form into a megastack in the face of your attack.
• Related to the above, converging attacks invite defeat in detail, in the case where the "defending" army instead attacks one of your converging forces and wins the DRN check.
• A well-timed assassination (18) can help greatly in regular battles (23).
• Even if your castle walls fall, you still have one turn to lift the siege, as the besiegers can be attacked normally (23) before they storm the castle (24). 
• When it comes to fighting in your dominion, dominion changes (6 and 7) are conducted before even the very first battles are calculated (10).  This may be helpful if you're operating a combat pretender in particular. 
• Starvation, as explicitly noted above, takes place after almost all battles are resolved.  On the first turn an army is cut off from supply, it won't suffer effects.

Also, unless I'm misunderstanding something, isn't the example you gave precisely the exception I gave in my post?  What would interest me more is if the converse were the case - if Ulm did not get the first move and was attacked in its home province by either a sequence of two battles with one, then two armies, or in a single battle by all three armies.  In that case, we could actually determine if the turn resolution sequence list in the manual is inaccurate.  Otherwise, what simply happened is simply that: (22a) opposed move - Ulm enters Pangaean province, (22b) all remaining moves processed simultaneously, (23) combat begins - Ulm vs. Pangaea in province from 22A, and Pangaea vs. Ulm in province from 22B. 

EDIT: And this is essentially as E. Albright succinctly said above.  Also, corrected the pages.