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[Kagus]

The "good at water, poor at land" deal is pretty much handled by units that have separate landshapes, like mermen, icthysatyrs and the like. The landshape will oftentimes have worse atk/def and definitely worse movespeed than their underwater forms.

Also, pale ones are not only great at smashing down castles, they're also amazing at holding them. They're strong, have minds, and don't eat supplies, so pound-for-pound they're great defenders (I believe their perception does play a part, slightly reducing their effectiveness) as their awful combat stats are balanced out with great strength for their size and cost, and their mysterious lack of appetite lets them just sit there regardless of what kind of supply stockpile you happen to have.


As for lizards, I've found myself using runners more and more. The stats are fairly similar, with the exception of using a spear instead of a trident, and I think maybe one or two points of health. In return, they get VASTLY improved movement speed, which helps them run under missile fire and get into melee range all the faster, letting their strengths actually get to work. Yes, losing the trident is a shame... But with the bite, the spear and the very decent strength, they're really not half bad.


Also, I've been taking Prod scales with Ur a few times lately, just so I can pump out more units from fortless provinces... Probably a terrible waste, but hey.  Same deal with LA T'ien Ch'i and EA Sauromatia, but those also have fort units that are worth recruiting and eat a fair amount of resources, so there's that.

[Jilladilla]

All this talk about Pale One Militia and everyone forgot that they don't appear as Indy's, but are part of EA Agartha's troop lineup!
Now, REGULAR Pale Ones, yeah, those guys can show up as indies, also remember that Pale One Commanders are excellent troop ferries, having 60 leadership and being cheaper than most commanders.
Pale Ones do also make great chaff if you can throw some protection buffs on them, very gold efficient for their durability then.

(And as for Kagus's comment on Pale Ones 'mysterious lack of appetite', by lore Pale Ones are implied to be related to the Olms (Earth made Flesh's description), and IRL olms, while much smaller than Dom4's Great Olms, can survive for years without food. Granted, it's practically hibernating in order to pull that off, but there is reasoning for it.)

[Mithras]

I think the main thing that makes underwater nations weak on land is the combination of amphibious units just not being built for land warfare, which means they usually get killed in droves by archers and that many underwater mages are aquatic, limiting their dry land magic power.

[E. Albright]

Also, pale ones are not only great at smashing down castles, they're also amazing at holding them. They're strong, have minds, and don't eat supplies, so pound-for-pound they're great defenders (I believe their perception does play a part, slightly reducing their effectiveness)

Nope. Perception is irrelevant; it's all about strength. Well, and flight. And siege/defense bonuses.

Fortresses must be reduced before they can be stormed.  To reduce a fortress, its Defense value must be reduced to zero.  Each turn, the total reduction strength of the besiegers is compared to the total repair strength of the defenders.

Reduction strength = unit strength squared / 100
● Flying units get +1
Repair strength = unit strength squared / 100
● Flying units get +1
● Mindless units are only worth 10% of calculated value

The difference is subtracted from the fortress defense value if the Reduction strength is greater.  If the fortress has been damaged, and the repair strength is greater, the difference is added back to the defense value, to the maximum of the original value.

[EnigmaticHat]

Underwater expansion is very odd.  The indys vary wildly in troop strength, and often the UW nation has few or no troops out of their lineup that are good at fighting the indys.  For reference, probably the best all-round mundane UW unit in the entire game is the shark tribe tritons.  Then once you've conquered the ocean or died trying, you need to get onto land.  Some UW nations require already having a land fort to get some of their troops, others have specific parts of their lineup that can't come ashore at all.

One way or the other UW nations are a MP diplomacy nightmare.  On one hand, its incredibly easy in most cases for land factions to keep batting you back into the sea.  On the other hand, if you can fight AT ALL as an UW nation, you can pick fights with land nations and when/if they beat you they will get NO reward for their troubles.

Re: perception, I believe that's for patrolling

[Neonivek]

As long as you can make amulets of the fish, there should be no problem getting aquatic gods, mages, and commanders onto land.

It is more that it is surprising with so few water bound units in a UW nation (or none in a few cases) that their dominion leader is basically trapped down there.

I honestly do wonder how effective some of them are... Like is the Kraken really worth it as a UW super Combatant?

I still remember the last time I tried to do a super combatant run... and I used the White Bull... and died to independents who cast a single ivy arrow... A great god felled low because he has no actual attacks

[Shadowlord]

Playing MA Ys, I've found invading land to be quite easy with a good bless on Ys's powerful sacred cavalry (which is even better on land than in the water since their mounts have a fire breath attack on land). They lack a native H3 priest, but don't really need one because (due to starting underwater with water paths) they can simply summon H3 Bishop Fishes to do that job. Bishop Fishes are aquatic, but Amulets of the Fish (Const 4, W1A1) give aquatic units the ability to Do Stuff on land.

I'm sure there are other aquatic nations with problems like you've been describing, though. EA R'lyeh comes to mind as probably the worst in the entire game.

That all said, the only water nations I've really played enough (i.e. in a real mp game) to be able to evaluate are EA R'lyeh and MA Ys, and with EA R'lyeh I subbed in for someone else at least halfway through the game.

[Kagus]

I'm curious about the changes made to EA R'lyeh, namely with the mind-transferance powers and the androleths. I'm sure it has some interesting applications (like being able to transfer the Astral skill of a really beefy S-caster over to something that actually has a head... and hands), but it's kinda limited by 1) Only transferring Astral skill, not any of the other paths, and 2) Not having a good system in place to tell who is mind-melded with who... The only way you can tell whether or not your mind lord can meld with a particular androleth is to just cast the spell and see if it works or if you wasted a mage turn and the requisite pearls.

Or rename everything.

As long as you can make amulets of the fish, there should be no problem getting aquatic gods, mages, and commanders onto land.

It is more that it is surprising with so few water bound units in a UW nation (or none in a few cases) that their dominion leader is basically trapped down there.

I honestly do wonder how effective some of them are... Like is the Kraken really worth it as a UW super Combatant?

I still remember the last time I tried to do a super combatant run... and I used the White Bull... and died to independents who cast a single ivy arrow... A great god felled low because he has no actual attacks

I'm... Not sure what you're talking about. There are two pretenders that are completely water-bound (three if you include the sphinx's immobility), the other aquatic ones can all use amulets of the fish in order to traipse about on land. And a fair number are amphibious by nature.

And yeah, the kraken is an amazing supercombatant, and since he can crawl up on land with an amulet he can go squiggle about on all the land troops too (and I think his poison ink cloud still works above water, which is... odd). Loads of hitpoints, tons of attacks including that delicious ink cloud, innate fear, and recuperation! What's not to love? Oh, yeah, and 4 hand slots that can wield whatever you might desire.

As for the bull dying, I'm still not entirely sure what you're on about. Even if he were kitted out like a destroyer of worlds, that wouldn't help him while entangled. Also you must've had one damn unlucky arrow for him to get tied up so long... but, hey, that happens. That's why fear/awe are so helpful, *especially* on tramplers.


On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

[Sean Mirrsen]

On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

Siege castles with them.

[Shadowlord]

On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

Siege castles with them.

Although I have been doing just that, they seem to be kind of bad at it.

[Sean Mirrsen]

On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

Siege castles with them.

Although I have been doing just that, they seem to be kind of bad at it.

But they are free, and don't need to eat. However terrible they are at sieging by default, they do get a flat bonus to it (and patrolling) because of flying.

I don't imagine them being particularly good at anything, though. Not without some kind of high-level force-multiplier magic.

[E. Albright]

Bishop Fishes are aquatic, but Amulets of the Fish (Const 4, W1A1) give aquatic units the ability to Do Stuff on land.

Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwww. They have bodies, give them the Shambler Skins they deserve!

[Cruxador]

On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

Siege castles with them.

Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.

[sprinkled chariot]

On another subject entirely... Swans: How do we weaponize a horde of flying need-not-eat freespawn?

Siege castles with them.

Better: put them in your own castles. Just set a few swan boys to call swans on repeat, and forget about them. Then, by the time someone comes up on that fort, it's all but untakeable.

bane venom charm   

[Sean Mirrsen]

Speaking of freespawn, are wolves called by on by werewolves (e.g. obtained via Call of the Wild) infinite? As in, I always assumed there is a limit that a particular werewolf can call up, like up to his command ability or something.

edit: also, looking at the Inspector confirmed my suspicion. The swans have negative Siege and Patrol bonuses, negating the automatic bonuses to the same from being flying.