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[EuchreJack]

Actually, these are the second elements of the UW revamps. 4.21 did a moderate overhaul on Oceania and Pelegia, and made rusting an issue. But I nitpick...

Well, you are the King of the Dominions Underwater realm, so you're allowed. 

[Cruxador]

R'lyeh went from a terrible nation with cool ideas to a mediocre nation that could see moderate successes in the hands of creative and skillful players. Therodos went from a nation with one great strategy that requires a skilled player to one with one mediocre strategy that requires unskilled opponents. I really like the ideas behind some of this stuff, but not the Therodos nerfs, and R'lyeh's new stuff seems too expensive. Especially Androleths (which are like olms but worse) and Grannies (which, so far as I can deduce, have no purpose that merits their great cost).

[E. Albright]

Well, the polyap spawns now do AN damage, even if it's capped at 1. At 6/square they seem pretty much tailored to eat thugs alive (even if 6/square also makes them more vulnerable to brands), which doesn't address the nation's weaknesses, but could make it a bit harder for land nations to invade them. And don't forget, it's not *just* Grandmothers; Mothers are now recruit-anywhere with a temple. So if you want, you can really drown your opponent in Spawns.

[EnigmaticHat]

bit harder for land nations to invade them

That's movement in the wrong direction...

[Cruxador]

bit harder for land nations to invade them

That's movement in the wrong direction...

I dunno, I agree that in general this is true, but I like R'lyeh having the theme it does. And turning the entire sea into a writhing mass of aboleth spawn seems like a good way to double down on that theme, countering out the (not huge, but still extant) loss of that particular aspect which comes from allowing the powerful ancient god-kings to project their power more effectively on the dry world.

[ThtblovesDF]

Yeah R'lyeh is great for it's theme alone - I always enjoyed just being in the background, offering mindhunts for profit and other shenanigans.

[sprinkled chariot]

Only updating therodos and EA rlyeh, feels kinda dissapointing

[chaoticag]

So... does anyone know how to play EA R'lyeh now? I'm finding the low drive of troops tough to work around, so any idea what I'm supposed to be doing? Aboleth troops are only good for aquatic fights, and there doesn't seem to be a way to make them go on land really, other than building a coastal fort to send mages back to have their brains replaced. Should I be using more rituals maybe? Use different units besides the slaves? Also, should I care to use any pretender other than the floating mind? Seems... really cheap in case you want good scales... but not sure how good scales are. Feel kinda lost with this nation.

[Cruxador]

Only updating therodos and EA rlyeh, feels kinda dissapointing

Also LA Mictlan. And the dev log already told us the broad strokes of what was coming so the only thing to be disappointed in is how poorly thought out some of these balance decisions were.

So... does anyone know how to play EA R'lyeh now? I'm finding the low drive of troops tough to work around, so any idea what I'm supposed to be doing? Aboleth troops are only good for aquatic fights, and there doesn't seem to be a way to make them go on land really, other than building a coastal fort to send mages back to have their brains replaced. Should I be using more rituals maybe? Use different units besides the slaves? Also, should I care to use any pretender other than the floating mind? Seems... really cheap in case you want good scales... but not sure how good scales are. Feel kinda lost with this nation.

It's still a quite weak nation, nobody else knows how to play it either. I think you're pretty much doing it correctly. Scales are good (especially gold, since your stuff is all expensive, and magic since most astral stuff is MR-resists and the best astral stuff is high level) and it might be good to go to A4 as well; the first level of air gives easy access to amulet of the fish, which can bring mind lords topside and which you couldn't otherwise get, going up to A4 will allow you to bless androdai from a precision of 7 to 9, which is still not stellar but it's cheap once you've paid the price to add a path anyway.

[sprinkled chariot]

Want to try ermor on big map strategy focused on getting burden of time as early as possible( remember someone on desura going with pulling out burden of time on turn 12 or something) ,
I guess, that first step is magic three, it is rather obvious. Second is neteret of many names for additional rp. But what is the most effecient research alghoritm ?

[Frumple]

Don't know, ahaha. Some other things you might consider, though... bumping one of the multipliers (it's either gold or productivity/resources, iirc, though I've forgotten which one) in world gen will also net you more D income from Ermor's capital site (MA ermor, at least), if my memory's not failing me. Also probably run 75% magic sites, and possibly consider something like chocolate sites for extra magic sites and more useful ones... you're going to need a lot of D income to pull it off (or leaning hard on indies, which is a notably inconsistent plan) regardless if you're trying it as MA ermor, since you need the D for both your researchers (which are honestly kinda' crap as researchers -- very expensive in terms of gems for the RP) and the burden itself and investing enough into said burden it doesn't get squished ASAP and more or less everything else you have to do in the interim.

If I had to guess, your optimal path would be picking up some air (or something of similar intent, fire, maybe astral or blood at an extreme stretch -- you're after low construction research boosting items) and then using that to boost your lowest cost researchers (which are also your most gem efficient, iirc)... maybe even dip into enchant as well, to summon revenants to hold research items, if that's cheaper than summoning your native research fodder (which I don't remember if it is, so... yeah). Ideal would be playing a disciple game or trading with another nation for research boosting items and/or death gems, so you can skimp on mage turns and whatnot.

More than that, I couldn't help y'much. Not much for the raw number crunching part of the calculations involved in the question, heh.

[E. Albright]

Only updating therodos and EA rlyeh, feels kinda dissapointing

KO said they wanted to get a really quick patch out the door since it'd been a while since the last one (thanks, CoE!) - there's still going to be more coming in the reasonably near future.

Also LA Mictlan.

And MA/LA Xibalba.

[Culise]

Want to try ermor on big map strategy focused on getting burden of time as early as possible( remember someone on desura going with pulling out burden of time on turn 12 or something) ,
I guess, that first step is magic three, it is rather obvious. Second is neteret of many names for additional rp. But what is the most effecient research alghoritm ?

At a wild guess, it seems like an Awake Great Sage pretender (Adept Researcher +15 for himself, and Inspired Researcher +1 for each and every other researcher in his province) is your best pick for RP-rushes, and a minimum of D5 in paths will be necessary as you won't have any Construction research.  Magic 3 on your scales should help by giving an additional +3 RP to every mage, especially since Ermor can tremendously dump almost all of their scales without issue.  You need to cover 50+100+200+400+800=1550 RP, to reach Thaum5, which means that over 12 turns you'll need to get around 130 RP per turn on average.  Every time you summon a Spectator, you lose 13 RP for one turn in exchange for 13 RP per turn; it pays off after one turn, and with an income of 15 gems at a minimum, you can do this once per turn and twice every four turns.  By contrast, attempting to summon even a single Dusk Elder with your pretender will cost you upwards of four dozen RP for a break-even point of at least 2-3 turns, not to mention requiring 20 rather than 12 gems.  Same goes for using your pretender to forge; not only do you need to divert for Con 2 (150 points) for a single owl quill (+6 RP) per turn, you're also losing any RP you could be generating having your pretender research while it's instead forging. 

So: Spectators are your primary researchers.  Go Great Sage and high Magic for your chassis and scales.  In my sole test (no expansion, pure research), this got me to Thaum 5 by Spring Year 2 (turn 14), but I went overboard on Spectators, which meant Burden of Time didn't go up until Summer (turn 17).  Though, you should be aware that if you ever try this in a multiplayer game, you will become public enemy number one, because the best way for anyone to take the global down pre-Dispel is to kill your pretender, so you may want to make at least some concession to defense. 

[E. Albright]

Technically with a GS and M3, Revenants are slightly better in terms of research-per-gem - you can summon 4@11rp/turn for the same price as 3@13rp/turn Spectators. However, it's probably worth it to go with the Spectators just because of how much more useful D2 is vs. D1 if you need to empty the labs...

[Shadowlord]

I'm a fan of equipping researchers with quills and/or lanterns, and do it in any game that I can.