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[EnigmaticHat]

Hello all, I'm seeking a sub for LA Pangaea in a 2v2v2v2 disciple game.  They are under attack, but still alive and well.  You are teamed with Agartha, who has been holding their own quite well all game and I believe controls all the territory of their original expansion and some extra on top of that.  For those who don't know, LA Pangaea has some of the features that made previous Pangaea ages good and then some really great centaurs.  Their centaurs that serve as both heavy cavalry that actually have enough health to take a hit or three, and mages that form extremely versatile communions.

Should be all the excitement of casting spells and fighting dudes without any of the hassle of the early game.  PM me if you're interested!

[BFEL]

Note: From Dom 3, not 4

So I finished my "trampleismyfriend" game and started one of MA Ulm. Holy crap they kick a lot of ass. And I grabbed the greatest Magic Site I have ever seen to date: The Council of Sages.

Not only does it provide 1 of earth, air, astral, and...I think water gems, but it also allows recruiting of a mage unit with three 100 chance all paths open random levels. So yeah, I'm set for finding new sites I guess Oh, plus easy blood hunters. And they're great at research too... jesus these things are OP

[Frumple]

... y'know, I've forgotten, but aren't those guys like silly expensive and old or somethin' along those lines?

Yeah, they're in D4, too, looking at the mod inspector... probably about the same except for being StR. Those paths are pretty looking, but the critters are functionally... kinda' cruddy, honestly. Massively expensive for what's very likely to be a 1/1/1 caster (which isn't exactly useless, but a 2 or 3 in one path is often significantly more useful) that probably dies come winter, and has hella' upkeep until that point. Do have a lot of research, but not enough to be particularly sexy gold/RP wise on something that old, that expensive, and that not-sacred. Much rather have the plain sage that's about half the RP, but less than a third the cost, insofar as research goes.

... don't like using either unless I've got GoH running or easy access to age fixes, really. Definitely not OP, though. They're a desperation buy to get some path diversity more than anything, imo. Maybe desperation researchers if you absolutely don't have anything less expensive/more reliable. Trying to rely on them as casters, dedicated site searchers, or researchers will break your bank in half and annoy you to the buggery via attrition, too.

[Majestic7]

There is quite nothing like playing multiplayer, dishing out 500 gold for some awesauce mage unit with old age and getting a feeble-minded senile drooler right out of the box. Oh great, a five hundred gold arrow stopper.

[BFEL]

Well considering I have 3000+ income its not breaking my bank at all. And in 3 they only cost 300 gold. I literally have no idea what to spend my money on at this point

[Frumple]

300 gold is hilarispensive :V Particularly without sacred cutting down the upkeep. The price hasn't changed between games. Especially for something with the lore master's stats, though... they're basically terrible at everything at that price with their numbers, despite how high they seem. Ruddy things aren't quite a trap, but they're close to one. Better if you've got a means to deal with the age malus, but they're still more or less a luxury or desperation good, not something you'd really want to use. Too old, too expensive upfront for what they're probably going to be capable of, no sacred means they're too expensive on the back end, too. Too flimsy to really use as a battlecaster, paths probably too low to do much as a ritual caster. Maybe some forging utility, but again the old age is likely to kill 'em before they're really able to produce much. Age brings the same problem to research, not to mention their little brothers (sages, though I don't think the council gives access to 'em) are notably more rp/gold efficient, as well as younger (though still old, which is a problem). They're just kinda' iffy as a unit.

... 3k income means you've won the game, though, unless it's buggeryhell huge (and probably even then, really). If you've got that much, you should be able to just spread temples everywhere and domkill the map, assuming you don't drown everything in bodies. Though that is more effort to pull off in D3. D4's repeat recruitment makes chewing through gold en masse a lot easier, heh. But yeah, if you've got that much coming in you don't really need to worry about cost efficiency or effectiveness or... anything, really. Screw around with whatever, at that point the only way you're going to have consequences for your actions is if you're playing vs. a similarly sized human player

[BFEL]

Well the map IS pretty damn big actually. I only own half of it. I think I have a inflated income because of my scales being 3 production and growth.
Playing against AIs, trying NOT to domkill the map this time around, cuz that is sorta boring. Granted I'm still throwing up temples like they're going out of style, but that's just to ensure a good buffer and because Vampire Queen.

I think I'm pretty much a lock to win, but ERMOR (Ma) pretty much owns the other half of the map, and thus the army screen shows me having maybe half their size. Granted, Ulm means quality that they severely lack, but I'm still hoping for a nice big fight to the finish

Oh, is The Ankh still a thing in Dom 4? It sounds awesome, but its description is pretty vague and I sorta remember it doing basically nothing in a previous game.
Any chance anyone knows its actual effects?

[Culise]

It should work.  I haven't used it myself in Dom4 yet, but all it does is trigger the Life After Death (Ench7; gives Reanimation to all friendly living units) spell at the start of the battle its commander is fighting.

[BFEL]

Ok, that sorta explains it. I think I was playing LA Ermor at the time, so I don't think I had any living units to reanimate

[BFEL]

doublepost because BUMP

So question: Did they nerf EA Atlantis in 4? I don't have it so I wouldn't know, but it seems like something they would do because HOLY HELL They are fucking OP in 3.

Half their units (i.e. the half you will use) are giants with huge stores of health, one of which is their sacreds, who have massive health AND massive protection, meaning a nature heavy pretender makes them practically invulnerable with regen. Not only that, but they have a level 3 priest unit with ENORMOUS health, making an excellent prophet/supercombatant, and they also have obscenely awesome (and healthy once again) mages in the Basalt Kings, who can get up to FIVE ranks in earth magic, four in water, or 3 in fire.

Oh, and one choice for their pretender is the Dagon, a unit that comes standard with trample, size 6, buttloads of health, and 17 protection. And then you can armor this monster.

I'm still in the early game and I'm already blown away with possibilities here.

[Jacob/Lee]

The new faction is curious, to say the least... Free ethereal undead units with base morale of twelve or so, limited early on by the fact that you have to RNG a death 1 Daktyl for 240 gold and two turns of recruitment a pop and then have him summon more ghost-commanders to call more spectres. The guys are walls of death early on, but high-level death mages will absolutely destroy your armies unless you take some land and build a fortress to train living versions of your men. I made the mistake of attacking an indie lich (because I'm not good at Dom4 and it's a SP game) and suffered 50% losses within ten rounds because he had six ranks of death magic and kept casting Wither Bones on my army. Enemies that tarpit with beefy units and spam banishment will definitely mess your forces up, too, since your soldiers are capable of routing from losses.

With the common fire/water/air magic and their limitations underwater, I would personally take my chances with the landlubbers over fighting some of the horrors in the oceans. All of the units you get are either fully amphibious or poor amphibians, so you at least don't lose anything by doing so.

[EnigmaticHat]

doublepost because BUMP

So question: Did they nerf EA Atlantis in 4?

Balance is completely different in Dom 4.  For one their Basalt Kings can only be recruited in their capital and take 2 turns (which is standard for expensive mages now).

In Dom 4, mages are harder to get and research is much slower (and thus also more expensive).  Using mages to summon or boost other mages to cast big spells isn't how the early/mid game is played any more, so having a national mage that can cast a great spell at <6 research is important now.  I'm not... really seeing one for them.  The Basalt Kings have some good stuff but nothing that would nearly justify their cost.  Unfortunately combat earth magic usually involves casting Summon Earthpower so being at high earth doesn't buy them much in combat, fire and water are honestly the two weakest paths in the game.  He can get acid, magma, earthquake, but... with evocations you generally want a lot of cheap, expendable mages rather than a big dude with extraneous paths.  The Mage of the Deep, well, his only guaranteed paths are W2, not exactly going to find a good spammable spell with that.

As I understand it they're still considered viable in multiplayer, mainly because they're a water faction that has shields, amphibious mages AND amphibious troops.  But you'll be facing off against the insane blesses of the early era or people who put some thought into kitting out their armies to compete with the big boys.  So just having decent armies isn't going to cut it.

I'd be interested in seeing if coral commanders can be thugged out.  80 gold, 25 heatlh, 13 defense skill, that's... weirdly practical.  Shroud of the Battle Saint + Charcoal Shield + N9E4 bless?  With a dwarven hammer that's 14 gems and 80 gold for something that should beat PD consistently.

[BFEL]

Well I was mostly calling them OP based on comparison to things like MA Ulm, which in 3 had epic armies, but as a balance had NO sacreds whatsoever, and pretty terrible mages.

Atlantis on the other hand has pretty awesome sacreds (Living Pillars, just shy of 30 health and 20 protection, making them good with nature blesses, and probably quite a few other blesses to boot. Oh, and they have magic weapons by default, so no worries against ethereal units.) it also has good mages, and its regular army is nothing to sneeze at, with Deep Shamblers that you can produce by the bucketload to take the first few provinces that will bring your resource production up enough to get the Living Pillars out at a reasonable rate.
Oh, and it has level 3 priests to divine bless them too, so no worries there either.
Basically its just good all around. There are probably better things, but it doesn't seem to have any real weaknesses, at least in 3.

And now I will be testing it out in 4, which just finished downloading

[ZebioLizard2]

Well I was mostly calling them OP based on comparison to things like MA Ulm, which in 3 had epic armies, but as a balance had NO sacreds whatsoever, and pretty terrible mages.

Atlantis on the other hand has pretty awesome sacreds (Living Pillars, just shy of 30 health and 20 protection, making them good with nature blesses, and probably quite a few other blesses to boot. Oh, and they have magic weapons by default, so no worries against ethereal units.) it also has good mages, and its regular army is nothing to sneeze at, with Deep Shamblers that you can produce by the bucketload to take the first few provinces that will bring your resource production up enough to get the Living Pillars out at a reasonable rate.
Oh, and it has level 3 priests to divine bless them too, so no worries there either.
Basically its just good all around. There are probably better things, but it doesn't seem to have any real weaknesses, at least in 3.

And now I will be testing it out in 4, which just finished downloading

I really, really would not compare anything to Dom 3 Ulm. They literally are the worst middle era race, and possibly in running for the worst faction ingame, saying something is OP compared to Ulm isn't exactly a strong mark and most Ulm's survived MP by being the Forge Faction for others to keep them off their back and pray they could get good independent mages.

Living Pillars had awful encumbrance , slow movement, and expensive resource costs from what I remember, not enough to be a worthwhile major blessing but an alright minor.

[EnigmaticHat]

The thing to remember about the EA is its not about "do I have good stuff" its about "do have BETTER stuff than blessed giants, airdropping/flying/stealth thugs, factions that can reach 3+ in multiple schools, ect."