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[Mindmaker]

Also, I'm pretty sure that a Super Combatant still needs items and spells to be effective. The major difference is that they can take out entire armies by themselves (hence the term Super Combatant).

Dragons and Wyrms count as SCs and you use them to take out neutral provinces by themselves turn one.
Of course you can stick items on them, but they fare quite nicely without them.

Basically a thug becomes a thug through magic and items. If a unit can thug without items and spells he's a SC.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Dragons and Wyrms count as SCs and you use them to take out neutral provinces by themselves turn one.
Of course you can stick items on them, but they fare quite nicely without them.

Basically a thug becomes a thug through magic and items. If a unit can thug without items and spells he's a SC.

Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.

[Neonivek]

Some Super combatants need items to be especially effective, that is true. Heck some Super combatants aren't necessarily going to take down provinces all by themselves or are really likely to die from independents (Such as the White Bull, who will die to one vine arrow)

The difference of course is that thugs NEED items.

I think the real issue here USEC is that the "Super combatants don't need items" is counter-intuitive for some people because... some Super Combatants really can use items or will later desperately need them (Some SC IMO are nearly useless later, in a combat role, because they can't get items... but for all I know there is a way to make them good). As well some "Super combatants" aren't going to be taking down armies on their own without items either because they aren't guaranteed to do so.

[USEC_OFFICER]

Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.

The above applies to what you just said, Neonivek. We obviously have different definitions of what constitutes a Thug and SC, and we're just going to talk past each other because of it.

[Neonivek]

Eh... Let's just agree to disagree. We're just going to be arguing against each other otherwise.

The above applies to what you just said, Neonivek. We obviously have different definitions of what constitutes a Thug and SC, and we're just going to talk past each other because of it.

I just thought the argument is more based off of a perceived strict definition that may or may not be true.

Or rather that people aren't really arguing with each other, they just think they are.

Also still mad about that Vine Arrow... Unstoppable killing machine destroyed by foliage.

Other then 50% miss rate, what are good items to put on Creature Pretenders? And are Creature Pretenders useless in combat in the long run?

[USEC_OFFICER]

I just thought the argument is more based off of a perceived strict definition that may or may not be true.

Or rather that people aren't really arguing with each other, they just think they are.

Also still mad about that Vine Arrow...

Arguing might not have been the best word. But we obviously have different ideas of what a Thug or a SC is, so we're just going to talk pass each other and I have no idea why I'm still harping on this.

Whatever. The point is that Doms is fun and watching an individual unit stomp through entire armies of chaff is enjoyable, and I think we can all agree on that.

[Neonivek]

My favorite Chaff are the Fairy Chaff. "Behold my army that looks 10 times larger then it really is!"

Too bad I have a feeling they aren't that good.

[USEC_OFFICER]

My favorite Chaff are the Fairy Chaff. "Behold my army that looks 10 times larger then it really is!"

Too bad I have a feeling they aren't that good.

Honestly I don't know my chaff. I just recruit lots of grunts and hope that they don't die. Besides, what would you look for in chaff besides cheapness?

[Delta Foxtrot]

re: Thug and SC definition debate
There's no single authoritative definition of what constitutes a thug or SC other than "commander who kicks a lot of ass solo". Except some thugs work in small teams. Yeah.
One decent sounding definition I've heard is an economical one. Basically a thug costs around 5-15 gems while SC's are a lot more expensive. This gets blurry when you consider that some people like to use words like "heavy thug" and "light SC". Beats me what their precise definition is.
So let's not get too hung up on what's the difference between a thug and an SC.

___

@Boksi
Hot diggity, I was wrong about their encumbrance. It's 5-6 for most troops which isn't horribly high. Thanks for pointing that out. As I said, their troops are great in a fight and their battlemagic is very good. Good point bringing up their 4-gem discount forging. For some reason I forgot to mention that. Quite silly considering I've played in a disciple match alongside Ulm where the cornerstone of our strategy was to equip a ton of thugs with cheap gear and kill everything.

With all that I still wouldn't call them a strong nation. They're not weak or irredeemably broken in a bad way. But I wouldn't bet on them to win a match either.
I guess it depends on whether you view their strengths or weaknesses more. I see their low MR, poor magic diversity and lack of mobility on and off the battlefield as things that will bite them in the long run. Kitting all of your battle evokers with 1-gem girdle and 1-gem eye of aiming isn't enough to tilt the scales in my view.

Maybe I'll get beaten by late game MA Ulm someday and change my mind. I wouldn't discount the possibility.

___

re: good chaff

You want the expendable chaff to take hits instead of your more precious mages/units. High HP lets them take more hits, high morale (or 50/99 value that mindless and berserking units get) keeps them from routing as they get hit and good defence/protection/MR/resistances/buffs take the sting off of certain hits.

High HP is generally inherent in the unit, though the global enchantment "gift of health" can help that somewhat.
High morale is easier to "fix", as good leaders can provide +2 or +3 morale to their troops, wear items to boost it further and there's a H2 spell that boosts morale by 1 as well. So a standard 10 morale unit can with some effort reach 16+ morale.
There's plenty of buff spells you can cast on your troops. What you can and want to cast depends on your nation.

As an example, astral nations often cast body etheral/luck/twist fate on their troops. First makes the unit ethereal, negating 75% of all regular hits, luck provides a chance (25%? 75%? I forget) of negating any attack that would have killed the unit while twist fate negates the first hit the unit suffers (not counting instadeath effects of certain spells/items). Astral isn't the only school with such buffs, but I'm not about to write a Buff Guide: All the Nations here so that'll do.

___

re: Gear for monstrous pretenders

I like the horror helmet if I can get my hands on one. Fear is good to have, though many such pretenders already have innate fear. I'm not sure if it's worth it to stack it, but I do it anyway. They also usually have one or two misc slots, right? I guess the usual misc items work here: girdle of might or amulet of resilience for more of that sweet, sweet reinvigoration. Amulet of magic resistance if you need the MR boost (soul slay is a bitch). And of course the wound fend amulet (80% affliction protection, I think) helps keep the dragon useful for longer. Ring of regen is another that's really good on a high HP chassis. And I guess specific resistances if you're fighting specific nations, like fire/frost resistance ring if you're fighting niefelheim or abysia for instance.

I'm not sure if the monster pretenders are useless in combat in the long run. Sure as counters get researched and deployed it's going to be more dangerous for a dragon to fly around. But it's still a flying hulking piece of destructive force. You just need to be careful with it.
The more immediate reason you don't use a dragon or such later on is that it likely picked up some afflictions at some point when you used it earlier in the game. Some of those afflictions are pretty bad for a combat pretender and odds are you'll want to keep him in a lab after a while. Though afflictions are a thing that more humanoid SC's have to worry about too.

[Neonivek]

So as far as I know Water is the only school that needs serious buffing, at least in terms of water nations.

I can only guess the reason they don't do that is that the Water nations perceived "advantage" is their unapproachability.

Why they have so few pretenders has more to do with the fact that all the other nations have a lot of crossover.

[Frumple]

I like the horror helmet if I can get my hands on one. Fear is good to have, though many such pretenders already have innate fear. I'm not sure if it's worth it to stack it, but I do it anyway.

It's totes worth it to stack fear, and even against stuff that's immune (dead stuff, etc.) the horror hat is actually a pretty decent helmet in and of itself. The extra head protection probably isn't going to hurt. It's a good item on pretty much anyone that's going to be seeing melee, if you've got the death gems for it.

[gimli]

Hell yeah, v4.05 is coming soon! 
http://www.desura.com/games/dominions-4-thrones-of-ascensions/forum/thread/dominions-update-on-its-way 

[E. Albright]

...

...

...I'm in two endgame matches right now, so the first word that comes to mind when I say this is "over-committing", but... might there be any interest in scaring up a Round 4.04? As a Disciple game? The one thing that my current (and for that matter, past) games have made clear to me is that I really am not entirely comfortable with "winner take all" and would be much happier working on a team so dagger-planting is not an inevitable part of the game. Would there be sufficient interest to cobble together a 3x3/3x4/4x3 match sometime later this month? I'd say wait for the 4.05 patch to come out so we could e.g. use the new Pretenders if we wanted, and/or have a few more potential players dropped out of rounds 3.15/4.01/4.02, but would there be interest enough for me to start a preliminary recruiting thread with eyes on delaying for a bit before spinning up the game?

[Shadowgandor]

I certainly would be interested! I've played Dom3 a lot and Dom4 a bit, but mostly against the AI so I'm not very good at the game yet. A disciple game definitely sounds fun!

[Delta Foxtrot]

I'm already booked for a big disciple game starting around early May, so I don't think I'd have the time. I do have interest, and based on a few disciple matches played, I really enjoy the team aspects and the reliability of your teammate(s). It also turns the nation choices into a puzzle in and of itself, since you have to figure out some good synergies and plan around them if other teams pick some of the nations you wanted.

So you guys should definitely go for it, even if I don't have the time to join. If you get unlucky and need a sub midgame, I might be available. Hope it won't come to that though.