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Author Topic: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension  (Read 542125 times)

moghopper

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #555 on: April 07, 2014, 04:33:55 pm »

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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #556 on: April 07, 2014, 05:10:34 pm »

Well they are still magic centric and the whole conjuration tree is way to overwhelming.
I'd rather stick to evocation, construction and the various other schools for buffs.

MA R'lyeh isn't conjuration-centric, though. If anything, they're thaumaturgy-and-evocation-centric. Still, your point is valid. They're quite strong, but they take some finesse to use.
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #557 on: April 07, 2014, 05:32:32 pm »

Dunno about vs humans, but vs CPU it's kinda' a cinch. The combo of mindblasters* and their tankier chaff (crab hybrids, shambler thralls) tends to completely wreck the underwater provinces, after which you've probably got a nice base to spew more mindblasters and chaff at everything above ground, too. Throw in the quite nice casters (including really nice spammy stuff like the star children! Cheap s1 assassins? Yeshplox. Gonna' magic dual me some mofos. All the mofos.) and the occasionally wickedly powerful gate summons (Bring a pretender with enough N to get GoR, or some other means of providing it, for some truly vicious commanders) on top of the whole "ridiculous amounts of astral" is just... they've got hella' punch. R'lyeh's pretty sexy, as water nations go, imo.

Basically, I'd probably say don't worry too much about finesse with R'yleh, at least to start. They've got some incredibly huge bludgeons you could be waving about instead, and get pretty far with it. and then they don't expect the wishdagger to the spine, nyohoho.

*A particularly big deal in underwater fights. You're basically the only thing bringing the ranged game to the fight down there, to any meaningful degree, until at least mid game.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 05:34:49 pm by Frumple »
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Neonivek

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #558 on: April 07, 2014, 05:37:42 pm »

Quote
they've got hella' punch. R'lyeh's pretty sexy, as water nations go, imo

Given I NEVER heard anything good about water nations except R'lyeh... That isn't saying much.

It pretty much boils down to "They sure would suck if they were a land race" if the info people feed me is correct. (speaking of water nations in general)
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #559 on: April 07, 2014, 06:06:00 pm »

I don't know, (EA/MA) Atlantis doesn't seem that bad.

I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".

But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #560 on: April 07, 2014, 06:29:03 pm »

Basically, I'd probably say don't worry too much about finesse with R'yleh, at least to start. They've got some incredibly huge bludgeons you could be waving about instead, and get pretty far with it. and then they don't expect the wishdagger to the spine, nyohoho.

*A particularly big deal in underwater fights. You're basically the only thing bringing the ranged game to the fight down there, to any meaningful degree, until at least mid game.

The bludgeons have answers, though. Not pretty ones, and they require finesse to wield, but if you're not ready to adapt with them, you'll hurt, especially when beaching. In a straight-up bludgeon-fight, though, I agree.

Also, underwater EA/MA Argatha brings the same ranged weapons to the underwater fight as you do, albeit in smaller numbers and a slightly less accessible package for MA (or EA on a cave-deficient map).
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #561 on: April 07, 2014, 08:44:51 pm »

I don't know, (EA/MA) Atlantis doesn't seem that bad.

I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".

But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.

Yeah, Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are the only water nations that I haven't heard people badmouth. Which... doesn't mean a lot, but it's definitely worth something. Any other water nation is probably going to be utter crap though. Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are just not as crappy.

Also, the Basalt Kings of EA Atlantis seem pretty damn thuggable to me. The only problem is their defense skill, but they have surprisingly good natural protection and HP for mages. Slap on some armour and regen and they should last long enough for fear to take effect. Seriously, they've got 16 base protection and 51 HP. That's pretty insane.

EDIT: Secondary question, do any items provide temporary water gems?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 08:46:42 pm by USEC_OFFICER »
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #562 on: April 07, 2014, 08:56:12 pm »

Water Lens (Cons4): 5W to craft, 1W per combat, +1 range W rituals
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #563 on: April 07, 2014, 09:00:28 pm »

Water Lens (Cons4): 5W to craft, 1W per combat, +1 range W rituals

Excellent... That's going to come in useful when playing as Ur, especially when I hit Construction 6 and can craft water bracelets.
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Culise

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #564 on: April 07, 2014, 09:29:40 pm »

I don't know, (EA/MA) Atlantis doesn't seem that bad.

I mean sure, they're expensive and despite their hunky HP they die like flies. Most big mages are either cap only or non-sacred which doesn't help the gold issue. Sacred troops are amusingly high enc and people's favourite armour is "the way god made me".

But even with all that the paths on basalt kings/mages of the deep look good enough that I'd be willing to give Atlantis a whirl some time.

Yeah, Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are the only water nations that I haven't heard people badmouth. Which... doesn't mean a lot, but it's definitely worth something. Any other water nation is probably going to be utter crap though. Atlantis and MA/LA R'yleh are just not as crappy.

Also, the Basalt Kings of EA Atlantis seem pretty damn thuggable to me. The only problem is their defense skill, but they have surprisingly good natural protection and HP for mages. Slap on some armour and regen and they should last long enough for fear to take effect. Seriously, they've got 16 base protection and 51 HP. That's pretty insane.

EDIT: Secondary question, do any items provide temporary water gems?
Basalt Kings have Earth 3, so they don't even need armor for protection.  First turn Ironskin, instant bamf.  The only downside is that they're not really spammable; slow-to-recruit plus capital-only hurts a lot. 

EDIT: Actually, those are some nasty-strong paths.  Earth gives access to Resist Lightning or Temper Flesh (anti-Fire), and Fire gives both full Protection from Fire and Resist Cold for elemental coverage; Summon Earthpower gives free Reinvigoration plus an additional 1E; Iron Will gives Magic Resistance boosts to shield against "save-or-die" spells; Fire Shield gives free damage to anything foolish enough to close in; Water gives Quicken(!) and Rain; and Fire and Earth have all sorts of Evocation fun even if you don't want to just wade in and kick the enemy army across the battlefield. 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2014, 09:39:24 pm by Culise »
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Mindmaker

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #565 on: April 08, 2014, 01:01:34 pm »

Lots of mixed opinions on the other place I frequent on MA Marignon.
I'd like to have a build that heavily relies on their national summons.
How would you design them?

Maybe 4E9N (open for suggestions), but I've got no clue about their scales.
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Culise

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #566 on: April 08, 2014, 02:19:32 pm »

Hmmm, tricky.  MA Marignon's national summons are all Fire/Astral, with the crown jewel being the Heavenly Choir (144 Astral gems, S7F2).  Their best native summoner is the Grand Master (2TR, cap-only), which has a guaranteed F3S2, a 100% shot at FAES, and another 10% chance at another FAES.  F3S3 is a safe bet, and F3S4 is possible, but not likely.  However, even with with F3S2 alone, you can try to catapult up with magic path boosters - Starshine Skullcap gives +1, and you can try to trade for Crystal Coins (or empower/pretender into combined Earth/Astral paths) for another +1.  If you can hit Construction 8 first, you should be able to grab the Dimensional Rod by using any S3 caster for a dangerous-but-useful boost (+1S, Horror Marked, Unremovable, Quickness, Increases insanity every turn), and if you can grab a F4S2 Grand Master on the side, in addition to having him forge Flame Helmets (+1F), slapping just +2S in boosters on him lets you create that marvel of marvels, The Forbidden Light (+2F, +2S, Horror Marked, Unremovable).  An outside chance also exists if you can get lucky with a A2F3S2 Grand Master, who can then forge the unique Tome of High Power (+1A, +1S, Horror Marked).  With +5S in boosters available to you, you can then churn out Rings of Sorcery and Wizardry, and call down Heavenly Choirs like the Pearly Gates are going out of business, as long as you can afford those exorbitant gem costs.  Of course, you have to either win the race to Construction 8 (for Dimensional Rod), obtain a Crystal Coin somehow, or get really lucky with those 10% paths on your Grand Masters. 

When considering the pretender, it's useful to know that Marignon is extremely resource-heavy.  Their main-line forces are around 20-23 RES each, and their cavalry arm exceeds 50.  Actually, generally speaking, Marignon has some rather difficult and contradictory needs - it needs high Dominion for its sacreds, high scales for its main-line forces, and high paths for any blesses, which combine to make Dormant almost mandatory at a minimum.  Its main-line forces are decent but not exceptional, and its cavalry arm is too expensive to mass in the early game.  Its sacred flagellants are both cheap and eminently spammable, but have all the durability of wet tissue paper, and are worthless unless you have a great bless, at which point they hit mediocre.  For scales, Production 2-3 is almost mandatory to deal with the resource costs.  Growth helps counteract the weakness of old mages, but Order gives more gold for your early expansion and is thematically appropriate for the zeal of the people everyone never expects.   

For paths, you can reduce the gambles on Grand Masters by putting Air, Astral, and Earth on your pretender.  A2E2S2 is the bare minimum in this respect, but higher is obviously better, not the least because 4 unlocks those blesses for your angels.  A3 gives you Arrow Fend, and A4 gives you the Precision bless and Mass Flight.  S4 gives you an MR bless, not to mention Mind Hunt and Gateway.  E4S3 gives you the Sword of Many Colors (+1 FAWE) and E4 gives you a Rejuvenation bless (critical, since fatigue's always a killer).  Alternatives are Earth/Astral (useful bless, guaranteed Crystal Coins) or Nature/Earth (minimum N4 for Gift of Reason to convert angel soldiers into additional commanders for further thuggery, preferably N9 for Regeneration and E9 for Rejuvenation).  For a chassis, the Great Enchantress is an option for additional Astral gem income, but she's more expensive because she needs to be built up rather than starting with high Dominion and/or paths.  Statue of Order is a cheap but immobile option for E9S9 builds, while the Titan of War and Wisdom is an option for AES builds and the Statue of Fertility gives the perfect baseline for N9E9.  Earth pretenders also have one more bonus - you're going to be spending gems like water on these boosters, so hitting E3 for that Dwarven Hammer will save you quite a bit. 
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 02:36:01 pm by Culise »
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Mindmaker

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #567 on: April 08, 2014, 03:21:54 pm »

Titan of Heaven
4A4E
8 Dom, 3 Order, 3 Production 3, 3 Growth

How about it?
I've been told that gambling Grand Masters, empowering and bossting them would be the way to go, since I won't be summoning that many high tier angles anyway, due to their high astral gem cost.

I wish I could get a better bless, but it's all so damn expensive.
Guess I'll have to compensate with equipment.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #568 on: April 08, 2014, 03:25:35 pm »

I'm not sure about prod-3. Based on my Jomon playthrough prod-2 would be enough for a res heavy nation. Mid-term troop production from several forts shouldn't suffer from prod-2 while giving you 40 extra design points to spend elsewhere. If you absolutely need cheap bodies fast, you can probably rely on indies sprinkled with flagellants instead.

If your idea is to use the sacred national summons (at best a mid-game goal, so make sure to have a plan to survive early game), I'd cater the bless primarily for those units instead of flags/knights. Ideally you have a bless that works nicely for all, but don't starve your pretender points trying to optimize a bless for several very different units. Same goes for your dominion. You can't spam knights due to high r cost, so don't even bother getting a super high dom for them. Flagellants can be spammed from all temple provinces so they don't need (but can utilize, being dirt cheap) high dom either. And your angel summons of course use pearls and couldn't care less about your dominion. So I figure that MA Marignon doesn't really need a high dominion. You could go high if you want to build around flagellants, but you've already said that you're aiming for the angels. There are of course the usual benefits for having a high dom that aren't nation dependant nothing that has to do with your sacreds.

I've never suffered from old age afflictions, but conventional wisdom is to get high growth if you have old mages.

Seems you want an awful lot of things: dominion, (multi?)bless, good scales... You may wish to consider an imprisoned pretender though that has some risks. Awake/dormant combat guy is a good asset to have in an early war.

And don't ever expect to get to the point where you can cast conjuration-9, 144 pearl summon. No matter how cool it is. That's just way too expensive and late to rely on getting. Cool if you get it, but nothing reliable. The lesser summons are actually reachable.

So two obvious(?) save targets: only dom-7 and prod-2.
Also consider misfortune-1 for more points to pump into a bless if you want.
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Mindmaker

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #569 on: April 08, 2014, 03:55:35 pm »

Well Dom is usually my "leftover points go there"-stat unless I need it high for something specific.
Guess I couldn't think of anything good to spend them on.

If I was more familar with spells and crafting I guess I could put it in some path and get good spells and items out of it.
If I can I'd like to play Marignon in a disciple game that will be coming up in a few weeks, wouldn't a high income/production nation with decent troops be nice to hold the line, while some 2-3 nations go for something more sophisticated? And then they chime in at midgame, where I can add my evocations and late add some angel support/thugs.
I mean I'm not sure if you can work together in such a way, but that would be a nice thought.

I guess I could drop growth, since it's a bit of an income overkill and it's a bit of a convenience feature, since it keeps afflictions at bay, but it's not that gamebreaking.
However I do feel like I do require high production to recuit decent sized armies.

Mistfortune with high order is a good idea and maybe i could even go down to dom-6, considering how good my priests are, but if I'd take a new magic path with the leftover points I'd need some sort of idea.

Edit:
I could either turn one of those minor blesses into a major bless, or get another minor bless.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2014, 04:00:11 pm by Mindmaker »
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