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[Shadowlord]

Ah. Well, we all use PBEM through www.llamaserver.net .

[BFEL]

Thank you Shadowlord *COOKIES ARE THROWN*


Anyway, I just imagined what the gamename for Albrights nationgen thing would be "NationgenUserHash" and now the "Samurai Pizza Cats" song is stuck in my head.

[EnigmaticHat]

I just downloaded the newest version of nationgen to see if I could take a single generated nation and make a strategy with whatever it is.  I... mistook the new UW nation for a nationgen nation    Almost made the most embarrassing post ever.

God, what a weird nation.  You have no money, but the very first time I hit the end turn button I got a forge bonus healer hero with a grand total of like 15 paths.  Who was basically a titan.  WTH.  And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers.  Because why not.

The actual nation I generated was a lot more typical.  Fire and earth, with just enough blood to be questionable if its worth investing in.  Upper level mages have sailing.  Almost all units were female, and crazy aggressive loadouts all around; a 9 gold "archer" with a crossbow and a short sword, a double falchion wielder, hoburg deer calvalry.  No one has any shields, there's barely any armor.  Sacreds suck but they're recruit anywhere.

I did find a strategy for them.  They have an 80 gold mage with 11 research.  Dormant Great Sage with money scales and 3 magic, that puts them up to 14 research, or 15 if they're in the capital with the Great Sage.  And I bought a bunch of different paths on him so he has 62 research.  For every expansion party but the first I just mass cheap crossbows and spam away.  As a result, everything is incredibly cheap and I build a bunch of forts and spam even more crossbows and 80 gold researchers.  First rush is to fire arrows of course, then construction 2 for dwarven hammers, and then from there whatever I want.  Blood, evocations, a fire/earth global, more construction, whatever.  When the Great Sage awoke a few months late I had 237 research per turn and 3 forts.

In a faction that is thematically dominated by women, the most useful troop is the male crossbowmen.  Nationgen continues to produce nations that look like they might be vanilla   Now I kind of wish I could play a MP game with these guys, but I guess if the game is hosted I'll get equally attached to whatever my name hashes out to *hint hint*.

[Frumple]

And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers.  Because why not.

You actually have the paths -- the d random smith guys can natively forge skulls staves, which gives them (well, anything with any death paths at all) access. Later, you can just pass off staves to revenants or whatev' and call up as many spirit callin' critters as you have resources for. The gems are more of an issue, heh. Takes a bit of research, but it's not terribly difficult to have enough by the time you actually roll a d-random smith, if the RNG's being recalcitrant.

They do have some passive freespawn, though. It just doesn't seem to be terribly prolific, and needs the standard ermor/lemuria temple (+ fort) setup. Kinda' wonder if there's something odd going on there regarding scales, honestly. The amount seems really low compared to ermor or lemuria, especially considering the critters aren't much (/any) better than lemuria's. Even asphodel seems to have better freespawn generation, which is probably the closest equivalent to the new guys.

For what it's worth (not much, considering the killer domain chewing on your income) you actually have recruitable standard infantry type critters, it's just that they only come out of land castles. Also a really interesting resource granting caster. It's neat because it's obviously intended to be paired with another land-recruit caster, since the resource generator causes unrest and its companion reduces it. The companion ones would probably make hella' good blood hunters (or at least something to set down in a blood hunting province) if you can stomach the cost for settin' the things up...

[E. Albright]

The amount seems really low compared to ermor or lemuria, especially considering the critters aren't much (/any) better than lemuria's.

Well, I mean, you do get the berserk-on-bless spectral sacreds, which is certainly better than anything Lemuria gets except possibly the very-rare apparitions, plus you get the slightly-questionable spectral archers, and you also get the (painfully rare) freespawn philosophers... but yes, this is quibbling, not refuting.

---

There should probably be a new release of NG in the next couple of weeks - I'd hoped to see one out by this week, but the amount of work adapting to 4.20+ as well as distraction relating to adding superfluous content has delayed that. The main thing that I'd say stands between me and being willing to do a release is finishing clan themes for Caelam, grr...

Spoiler: Two recent test nations (click to show/hide)

These generated one after the next; I can only assume the "u vs. e" schism is at the root of their violent separation, but I suppose non-believers will never understand the deepest mysteries of a given faith. A keen eye will detect colossi towering over the common southern hoburgs comprising the rank and file of each nation...

[EnigmaticHat]

And of course your only way of getting your freespawns is to summon a priest that your nation has neither the paths nor the gems to practically summon in any large numbers.  Because why not.

You actually have the paths -- the d random smith guys can natively forge skulls staves, which gives them (well, anything with any death paths at all) access. Later, you can just pass off staves to revenants or whatev' and call up as many spirit callin' critters as you have resources for. The gems are more of an issue, heh. Takes a bit of research, but it's not terribly difficult to have enough by the time you actually roll a d-random smith, if the RNG's being recalcitrant.

Oh I'm aware of all that.  But that strategy you just outlined involves a .04% random, researching 6 and 4 in two different schools, all to START your strategy.  I did specify "practical".  On the other hand, your pretender needs to do a lot, I'm not sure single-handedly sitesearching death and and slowly summoning ghost-mages is the way to go either...

They have so many odd features, I'm sure a coherent strategy will be about separating the traps from the gems.  The way I look at it, things you want out of your pretender:
Luck scales, to get your two ridiculous heroes that are essentially pretender gods unto themselves.
An awake SC to deal with your questionable early recruitment abilities.  And outrun the domkill effect to keep your income going longer.
A dormant or awake amphibious SC to break into land and start building a fort before all the provinces get taken (ideally awake, usually by the end of year one the board is pretty crowded).
At least one death path, so you can site search and occasionally head back to the lab to cast your no-research summon spell.
A bless that benefits your living sacreds, particularly on land where they excel.
A bless benefiting your undead sacreds, probably the higher priority in the long term.

That's... an awful lot, especially with the still weak options offered by UW pretenders.  Probably some of those priorities will have to be ignored.

[Frumple]

... it's a 25% random, not a .04% :V The daktyls only need D1 to start forging staves -- master smith bumps up it up enough. The .04% is only if you want them to cast it natively, which... yeah, I wouldn't be holding out for that. I didn't even notice they had 110%, ha.

The research is pretty troublesome, yeah, though you only need cons 4 to start staff forging. For what it's worth, your starting army can do some pretty good work -- the spectrals tear up most UW PD, from what I've seen, with about the only holdout being amber provinces -- and keep things rolling until you've got what you need to jumpstart that part of your army layout. Kept for posterity: In which Frumple's memory leads to silly statements.

... though actually checking things, now I'm wondering why I thought you needed skull staves or D2. The base freespawn summoner summon is only D1, and once you have the one D1 smith, you can have it summon revenants (which is only ench 3) to summon more ephors, if you actually have the surplus of gems to bring in more spectre callers. Otherwise it's just setting the smith to summon more ephors. So all you need is a (slightly more than) 25% random to start off your undead production. Everything else is gravy. Which innit too bad, really. Conceivably it starts at turn two or three, if your pretender has no D and you alchemize everything into death. And luck out on your first daktyl being one of the 1/4th D randoms.

So, double checking things, I'd probably argue you don't need an awake SC* pretender for early game expansion (though you likely still want one, because while taking one/turn is nice, taking two/turn is better), so long as your start army avoids priest provinces (and maybe if it doesn't, if you send along a prophet), you don't need the SC to summon ephors -- daktyls manage that just fine, if the RNG isn't being a complete jackass -- you don't need your pretender to do sitesearching (daktyls, again, should manage, and are your best native sitesearchers anyway). The bless is a definite thing, but you're dealing with a domkill nation so you'll probably tank your scales (except magic and luck, the latter of which you'll probably end up relying on for income) anyway, so you've got what you need, there.

*Which... looking at it, your cheapest chassis can probably manage that easily enough, if you're okay with a water/astral bless (actually pretty decent for your ethereal sacreds!). W9S9 awake floating brain, 7 dominion, 2 Turmoil 3 Sloth 3 Cold 3 Death 3 Luck 2 Magic? Cash income will be shite, but that's what the ephors are for.

[EnigmaticHat]

Its a 22% on a StR cap only mage, so its an average of slightly under ten turns before you have any D.  Also *I* messed up, meant to type .4% instead of .04%.

what I'm saying is, ea therodos really wants the d

[Frumple]

Y'know, I had missed they had the fire random. Somehow. Could have sworn the things only had four random choices. Anyway, yeah, 1/5th and a bit. Bit of luck if you want to start it early, bit of bad luck if it starts well late.

... would still probably say you've got good odds of holding out for it until then with your starting army and passive freespawn summoning, though, if you don't want d on the pretender. Their hoplites are actually kinda' brutal, in practice, and the sacreds aren't exactly bad.

Almost certainly wouldn't go heavy d unless you were after the death rituals, though. If the freespawn's all you're after, you only need the one or two.

E: Though... I did just notice the ephors don't actually get access to your standard undead holy spells. Nevermind, I take back any and everything good I've said about therodos. Base 12 MR on your ethereal chaff isn't going to save your arse from mass banish or whatev'.

[Besserwisser]

These generated one after the next; I can only assume the "u vs. e" schism is at the root of their violent separation, but I suppose non-believers will never understand the deepest mysteries of a given faith. A keen eye will detect colossi towering over the common southern hoburgs comprising the rank and file of each nation...

Burg is German for castle, while Berg is German for mountain. For what it's worth, I would expect them having the opposite names from what I see. Kongburg looks very tribal and wild while Kongberg looks very civilized. Should be the other way around.

[EnigmaticHat]

Dicking around with NationGen.

Spoiler: Found a nation where every single troop option is interesting and possibly useful (click to show/hide)

They all serve some kind of purpose; the infantry each have a role.  One has a banner, there's a tower shield normal and a tower shield sacred, there's a net infantry, and the giant Agarthan lets them go underwater.  The archer has a composite bow, and the cavalry both get many attacks.

Speaking of calvalry that get a million attacks, this is one of their two sacreds:

Spoiler: just look at it (click to show/hide)

That's with the default sacred options, apparently there are two more levels of crazy (although to be fair most of them generated on that level were pretty normal).  Not sure if its *useful* per se but it certainly has the potential to chew through a front line with the right bless, say an F9W9 bless.

One thing I will say about nationgen is I'm tired of seeing every single mage except for the occasional low-level one having one or two 100% randoms and then one of a few configurations of lower % randoms.  Its not consistent with vanilla and it takes away some of the variety the mod offers.

[BFEL]

You know, I'll never understand how the game (or nationgen for that matter) rates what makes a nations' priests "strong" or not. I mean its easy to say the nation with all tier 1 priests is weak, but half the time it says a nation has "strong" priests it doesn't have a single tier 3. Which is kinda the main defining trait of making strong priests, seeing as those are the only ones which MATTER. There isn't much practical difference between a tier 1 priest and a tier 2 priest, but tier 3 gets to bless all divine units on the battlefield at once, which is the difference between having ONE blessarmy and UNLIMITED blessarmies.
So any nation without a tier 3 has no damn business listing its priests as "strong"

[Frumple]

... there's only two nations labeled as powerful/strong that don't have H3 priests... and they share the same H2 unit (Which is recruit-anywhere and a pretty decent caster with built in awe on the side of being H2, but aquatic). Both Oceania. I just checked via mod inspector, heh.

So, uh. It's almost always because they have H3 priests, ha.

No clue why oceania is labeled as a powerful priest nation, though. Their priest is actually pretty iffy, decent casting paths aside. Rest of 'em is pretty consistent in what's causing it (access to at least an H3 capital commander -- several also have summons or, in the case of Abysia, H3 recruit-anywhere).

[BFEL]

Hmm, I might be misjudging how often it happens because of the ones that need to be summoned. I mostly just go through the nationals and if I don't see an H3 I ragequit in disgust

Also, just got the most amazing nationgen result I've seen so far. Abysian (with a hoburg bowman and power armor unit tainting that ) with reanimating priests, Fire and death primaries, air and blood as secondaries. It's capital has a ghost generating site operable by a death mage, its sacreds are Burning Ones in plate armor with Fire Power AND Storm Power (as well as storm immunity if you feel like buffing them with flight) and every mage above the first crap tier one has 20 points of Invulnerability.

Oh, and the sacreds also have 20 morale and 18 MR, just in case. They cost 70 gold and take a bunch of resources, but abysian so that's to be expected.
And all their abysian units have 50 darkvision. Nearly forgot that.

Honestly I'm almost afraid to see what abominations they have for heroes

EDIT: just now noticed the two weaker invincimages are recruit anywhere. So holy fuck.

[Frumple]

Heh. Actually, of the ones called powerful/strong in their descriptions, oceania is still the only one that doesn't have recruitable H3s, at least in the base game. There's just several that have summonable ones on top of that :V