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Author Topic: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension  (Read 542091 times)

Jilladilla

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1320 on: June 03, 2015, 02:07:21 am »

I would like to join in on that! (Just a note though, clustered starts seem to confuse the map and break the pre-ordained start positions if we care about that.)
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USEC_OFFICER

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1321 on: June 03, 2015, 08:09:54 am »

I'd be up for joining a game like that. What age are you guys looking at playing?
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1322 on: June 03, 2015, 12:02:29 pm »

This was what I was thinking:

2v2v2v2, no restrictions on pretender design or choices.
Age is picked by vote of participating players
Every team drafts two nations Catan style (teams pick first nation in random order and then second nation in the reverse of that order, so fourth team to pick picks twice in a row)
Any appropriate map as long as its double wrap, start positions are pre-set with teammates starting closest to each other.
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1323 on: June 16, 2015, 06:48:24 am »

FWIW, Dom4 is 8.74USD (75% off) on Steam for the next 17h...
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Un67

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1324 on: June 16, 2015, 06:53:30 am »

I just picked this up on sale after watching countless different LPs and AARs of the game. Any advice for what a beginner should do, besides reading guides and such? Try out single-player first, or go straight to the deep end?
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E. Albright

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1325 on: June 16, 2015, 07:16:58 am »

Single player. Definitely single player. I suggest starting in Middle Era as either Ulm or Marignon - probably Ulm. It's one of the most forgiving setups for new players: extremely strong national infantry, good battle mages, good forging. It won't expose you to the deep intricacies of the game, but you don't want to worry about those at the start.

Marignon would give you reasonably strong troops, and excellent but one-dimensional mages - just study Evocation for the most part, and burn things.

On that last note, MA or EA Abysia also are fairly friendly to new players - super-heavy, expensive infantry and fire, fire, fire.
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Kagus

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1326 on: June 16, 2015, 08:25:32 am »

With the added bonus of actually being IMMUNE to said fire, fire and fire.  Marignon's troops get toasty just as quickly as the enemy.


Also, someone else should probably bring up the "first few steps" as to what to do in the very beginning...  Only thing I'd heard was to try and take at least one province every turn after the first (so you get at least some reports on the provinces surrounding the capital before charging in) and getting a second castle finished before the first year is out.

EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1327 on: June 16, 2015, 04:50:09 pm »

You need at least one fort, over ten provinces, and an army by the end of the first year.  You should also have laid the groundwork for magic with a cost-efficient research team and some site searching.  To learn to do this, just keep rapidly starting new games against the AI and restart whenever you either mess up or succeed in your early game goals.  Keep doing that until you don't mess up any more.

What an army means isn't as obvious as first apparent.  Fighting independents you might get the impression that war is about morale and melee superiority.  Your blob of infantry hits there's, one wraps around the other, and then within a couple of turns one of them routs.  But against an actual human opponent, both of your armies will fill the entire width of the battlefield.  Since units prioritize attacking horizontally over diagonally IIRC, this means each tile of infantry will only be hitting a single tile of enemies.  Not good for a quick breakthrough.

So you need a way to do damage that isn't your frontline.  This is where your mage support comes in (its mage support at first, at a certain point it flips over and your armies are supporting your mages). Your goal in the early game should be to pick a school and then have effective magic support for your armies using either the 4th or 5th level research of that school.  Often in the second year one spell could be all you need to use, provided its a really good spell. What you tell your mages to use will define what kind of army you have.  To make a very broad generalization, there are two types of armies in Dominions:
1. Armies which rely on ranged damage from the back line and use the frontline as a delay.  This means evocation mages usually, but it could also mean fire arrow armies, or demons that have magic ranged attacks.

2. Armies that bias the battlefield in their favor so the front line wins a slow battle.  This includes blessed sacreds, undead spam, fatigue causing globals, army buffs, probably some other things I've forgotten.  The key point here is survivability; if you go up against the first type of army, you need to last long enough so that their evocation mages fall unconscious from spellcasting fatigue and their ranged units to run out of ammo.  Usually this means having a vast HP pool and/or a lot of shields.  If you go up against a flaming arrows army negating the flame effect is paramount, evocation mages generally only get off 3-5 spells but each archer will get at least a dozen shots and archers are cheaper than mages.  Fire resistance is ideal, protection could be a poor substitute if necessary.

As the game goes on there'll be stranger and meaner strats, but for the most part its all one of those two.  I'd recommend the first for newbs, but if you do want to try the second try to find a guide to narrow down what's viable for your faction.  As the game goes on and you research more types of magic, most factions will start using both types of armies or combinations.

Also, if you want to go on the offensive in MP keep this in mind: wars are fought in two arenas: massing as much power into one province as possible (armies) and getting the most cost efficient unit together that can beat the enemy province defense (raiding).  If you want to win a war, you need to be able to deal defensively with BOTH types of combat.  If one side wins the army battle and one side wins the raiding battle, both of you are going to lose the game because neither of you has an effective defense against the other.  Remember, even if the front is short they might have stealth or flying raiders so always be vigilant and always look up your neighbor's factions on the internet.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 05:35:58 pm by EnigmaticHat »
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ZebioLizard2

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1328 on: June 16, 2015, 05:01:28 pm »

That and after a while basic nationals in most cases will begin to lose power to Thugs and Super Combatants. Creatures that are kitted up with strong artifacts that can deal well with armies with only one or two units.
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Delta Foxtrot

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1329 on: June 16, 2015, 05:32:01 pm »

That and after a while basic nationals in most cases will begin to lose power to Thugs and Super Combatants. Creatures that are kitted up with strong artifacts that can deal well with armies with only one or two units.

I'd argue that to be somewhat nation specific. I've had success playing various nations without SC's. Mages can kill SC's, mages can kill armies, and mages can buff your troops to act as ridiculously sturdy meat shields while mages kill everything.

But I've been on both sides of the thug/SC strategy as well, and they can definitely do a lot of damage if they're built properly.

edit:
To summarize, I suppose it would be most accurate to say that research triumphs, whether that RP is put towards SC summons/gear or general mage awesomeness.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2015, 05:34:31 pm by Delta Foxtrot »
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Frumple

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1330 on: June 16, 2015, 05:46:02 pm »

Most accurate, perhaps, but not entirely. I'd not even say terribly accurate at all, really (though perhaps moreso than attributing it to any other single feature of a D4 round). The full MP game I was in, I think I was actually one of the nations in the game with the lowest total research (I was pretty significantly behind my team-mates, in that particular disciples game), but there was still plenty of work being done. The one I subbed in for, the nation I took over almost definitively had the most research done out of any nation in play... and had been more or less stomped on, pretty hard.

There's not really any primary factor to what determines victory in a Dominions game, I'd say. You need research, but it's useless if you can't leverage it, and it can get you killed if the forces and gold you're allocating to RP generation is what you need to keep from getting stepped on. You need provinces, but they're useless if they're not doing anything for you, or you can't keep them. SCs are great, but they're not helping you much if someone's got a cadre of astral mages dropping VotD on them every turn and you don't have enough MR on the critter to stop it, or the various other sorts of shenanigans being played. Awesome mages do jack-all if you're losing them in droves to slim kit assassins. The list just sorta' goes on.

What triumphs in a Dominions game is getting what you need(/can) and using it well, be that research, provinces, gems, particular troops, or all of the above and then some. Victory in these games seem to be more a balancing act than anything, with whoever balances best coming out ahead.
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sum1won

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1331 on: June 25, 2015, 04:37:32 am »

Hi! I've created a document that is an attempt at documenting alleged balance issues. Some of these are controversial, so discussion is encouraged. This is somewhat in response to Maerlande's suggestions for an actual community-wide balance mod, and somewhat in response to threads on things like Rain of Stones and summon-assassins.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing

UW is not currently touched. This is mostly dealing with wide-ranging problems - I'm not as interested in making tweaking slime or improving totem shield as I am in addressing flagship issues that seem to crop up frequently. The three primary areas are: Nations, Magic, Pretenders. This might include (near)useless globals - but mostly in schools that are already underwhelming - or game-changing spells.

I know there are people who disagree with a number of these claims, which is why it allows suggestions. The purpose of this document is to allow for the identification of different problems with balance and allow people to either argue why they are not problems, or to identify solutions. Not all "problems" nor all "solutions" will necessarily be addressed in any resulting mod. At the moment it is a brainstorming tool, not a blueprint.

There are multiple balance mods, but currently most of them have been arbitrary in either their identification of problems, identification of solutions, or both. There has also been a great deal of disagreement on which are appropriate.

For "problems" that multiple mods have identified, I'd like to list the various proposed solutions. For example, there are at least 5 mods that attempt to "fix" yomi, with varying "fixes." I think it stands that Yomi could use a shot in the arm, but there is disagreement on what that shot should entail. Putting them side by side should help with that.

It is a googledoc because I am crossposting it to multiple forums, and don't want people to be forced to register in one place to discuss it. There are some forums I don't have access to or don't regularly visit - please feel free to cross post this to those as well. It is not in "edit" mode because I'd like to have some curation ability given the likelyhood that some persons will try to mess with it. If somebody has an alternate solution, I'm all ears.
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EnigmaticHat

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1332 on: June 25, 2015, 11:23:48 pm »

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Tw3uQDvH6RosHpdWhtgOxZq0lx4g-tzDwZtc6TVf1-c/edit?usp=sharing

UW is not currently touched.
Heh, ignoring the most obvious issue in the game I see :P  I can understand why, UW is seriously broken.

When I first looked at the doc I was expecting a whine list but I agree with almost everything I read (stopped at nations, don't really know enough about specific ones to care).  So good job with that.
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You misspelled seance.  Are possessing Draignean?  Are you actually a ghost in the shell? You have to tell us if you are, that's the rule

nenjin

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1333 on: June 26, 2015, 01:25:13 am »

As someone who has only played Dom SP, I'd have to agree with Frumple. The game sort of teaches you this (if you've played the AI enough.) For example, I like to build Assassins purely for shits and giggles. And I find no one build of Assassin just "gets it done." I've had Assassins nuked before they've even crossed the field (Prophets.) I've had them get gang rushed by bodyguards when they're trying a ranged snipe build. Flattened in one hit from a Thug or SC despite all the damage reduction they can get. Each one can take out some kinda of commanders but not all commanders.

Likewise, I'll have armies that steam roll everything for turns on end until one of my leaders gets et by an Astral Horror because, when I roll back my saves, I realized I was Horror Marked (Cursed, etc..) turns and turns ago by some POS Independent Shaman.

I also agree, even from SP, about the need to make ground quickly in the first year. My motivation is the Hall of Fame, personally. The sooner you get heroes into the HoF, and they stay in it, the better those bonuses get. And you have to be pretty aggressively rack up XP before it fills up in a game of 5 players.

Getting a magic finding crew together can be tough, but since I'm not necessarily under pressure when I play because the AI is AI, I try to build a rainbow team to get all the gems flowing. And that is a serious investment in gems unless you luck out finding the easy magic sites.
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Shadowlord

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Re: Dominions 4: Thrones of Ascension
« Reply #1334 on: June 26, 2015, 05:16:31 am »

I thought it was funny that EA Kailasa was listed as a weak nation, but MA Bandar Log wasn't.
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