Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

Author Topic: Archery training, Science  (Read 1122 times)

Larix

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Archery training, Science
« on: June 17, 2013, 02:33:51 am »

To get the basics out of the way:

Getting marksdwarfs to practise archery is mostly a question of getting the setup right. Both active and inactive squads can practise, if they completely fail to do so under either setting means there's something wrong with the way they were set up.

In either case, the absolute minimal requirements are a proper ranged weapon and quiver, properly assigned ammunition (equipment in the military screens) and archery targets enabled for them to 't'rain there.

On top of that, inactive squads don't really need anything apart from a bit of spare time. Archery practise is just another 'job' they can do and it needs to be picked instead of a normal civilian job. Notably, inactive squads _don't_ need a barracks, and having one even tends to be counterproductive, because squad members might end up going there to do 'individual combat drill', training melee (if they have any) or defensive skills (typically dodging, it seems). Neither of which helps with building a capable citizen militia centred around stopgap self-defence and filling the air with bolts through massed deployment.

Active squads also need a barracks to work properly. This enables various defensive-skill drills and demonstrations, which tend to make the archers more survivable when faced with enemies but can also soak up a lot of time, so it may sometimes look like they don't practise archery. Given enough time to get past the demonstration bump, they'll typically end up shooting at the targets constantly, levelling up very quickly and burning humongous amounts of ammo in the process.

My assessment is - inactive training to get decent skill for large numbers of dwarfs without taking them out of the workforce, meaning a large number of the civilian population can react somewhat effectively to threats. Next to no supervision required, ammo consumption is fairly moderate compared to the number of dwarfs trained.
- active training to level-up dedicated ranged soldiers who stay on duty almost constantly; once they're levelled enough, they only need to shoot at targets to keep their skill up, and one or two targets for a whole squad should easily suffice for that. In the training process, the ammo consumption is enormous and because they're on active duty, keeping an eye on their happiness is prudent.
- i found that an active training squad only needs to _have_ a barracks; it's not necessary that the barracks overlaps the archery targets, but i'd recommend it. The barracks is the nexus of training activities; to 'organise' their schedule, squad members first go to the barracks. If they then decide to go to archery practice, having the archery range in the same room cuts down on pointless walking around. They'll be doing more than enough of that already.


Additional not-really-important stuff in spoilers below.

non-archery skills and active training:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

mixed archery/melee squads; specifically tested the combination of marksdwarf with hammerdwarf
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

archery squads and sparring
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

trivia:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #1 on: June 17, 2013, 03:24:46 am »

Crossbows don't enable sparring. It looks like wrestling skill isn't sufficient, either. The crossbowdwarfs had novice+ hammer skills for years and spent a year or two with all archery targets disabled. They never started a sparring session. I made a half-hearted check for wrestling, too - i.e. they all had adequate wrestler skill and crossbows and didn't spar with that either, they all performed 'individual combat drill' again. I stopped that test after a single season, so i'm not 100% certain, only 98%. Once i gave them their hammers back, their first sparring session took less than a month to occur.

Not sure if it's something specific to LNP r18, but my marksdwarves spar with just crossbows. When I overlapped barracks and archery targets, they started to split their time between archery practice and sparring matches, with the odd demonstration thrown in.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:39:27 am by VerdantSF »
Logged

Hommit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #2 on: June 17, 2013, 03:35:52 am »

When I overlapped barracks and archery targets, they started to split their time between archery practice and sparring matches, with the odd demonstration thrown in.
Not sure what is wrong, but in my case they spend really small part of time shooting :(

What is xbow skill level required to shoot through fortifications >1 tile wide?
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 03:48:06 am »

Not sure what is wrong, but in my case they spend really small part of time shooting :(

What is xbow skill level required to shoot through fortifications >1 tile wide?

The issue might be ammo reloading.  Marksdwarves will reload from bins, but it can take a long time.  At the same time, stockpiles set to zero bins can quickly get overrun by single bolts.  Even though the marksdwarves will reload with single bolts, I've only seen them pickup 12-15 bolts at a time.  Here's how I worked around that:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=127324.msg4323999#msg4323999

Quote from: DF Wiki
An archer must have a skill level of accomplished or higher to shoot through fortifications from a distance
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:50:58 am by VerdantSF »
Logged

Larix

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 03:49:58 am »

[archers sparring without 'proper' melee weapon]
Hmmm. Did they by any chance have other non-weapon melee skills like striker? Perhaps the ability to engage in fisticuffs could be enough to trigger sparring. I ran my test squad over years, so i'm confident that _they_ really needed their hammers to spar, even if it doesn't apply to _every_ marksdwarf squad.

I'm willing to chalk it up to 'sometimes dwarfs just are weird', but i'd prefer to spot a recognisable reason if there is any...
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 04:01:05 am »

**Edit** And now they're not sparring, while all the melee troops are :(.  Hmmm... I've been tinkering around a lot lately.  One thing I've noticed in the gamelog file is that the marksdwarves only sparred with other marksdwarves.  I created a test squad, recreating the setup I thought I had when I first noticed them alternating between archery practice and sparring... and naturally now they won't do either.  Sigh. Marksdwarves are so finicky!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 05:35:27 am by VerdantSF »
Logged

Hommit

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 05:46:07 am »

**Edit** And now they're not sparring, while all the melee troops are :(.  Hmmm... I've been tinkering around a lot lately.  One thing I've noticed in the gamelog file is that the marksdwarves only sparred with other marksdwarves.  I created a test squad, recreating the setup I thought I had when I first noticed them alternating between archery practice and sparring... and naturally now they won't do either.  Sigh. Marksdwarves are so finicky!
Thats why i was about to use goblin training from http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/DF2012:Mass_pitting, until i found that noob marksdwarves cant shoot through 2 tile fortifications. Guess they have just to endure miasma.
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 11:18:25 am »

Going back over my logs, I realized I made a big assumption.  I definitely had marksdwarves sparring without any weapons other than crossbows.  BUT it wasn't the group I assumed it was.  While experimenting with the idea of frontline archers included in majority melee squads, I split my marksdwarves into two distinct groups.  The aforementioned frontline archers with steel crossbows and armor vs. more traditional marksdwarves in ranged-only squads equipped with leather armor and wooden crossbows (with the odd metal bow here and there due to weapon preference). 

Once I gave both groups barracks and archery ranges, both began to engage in archery practice.  I also started seeing the scrolling spar text and directly observed marksdwarves in the ranged-only squad doing so.  When I compared their skills over 2-3 years, I got the following:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

SXbow = Steel Crossbow, denoting the marksdwarves who are in squads with melee dwarves.  Looking at the log I posted earlier in this thread, only the regular Xbows are sparring there.  I *assumed* the SXbows were sparring, too, since their skills were increasing faster than the Xbows.  The barracks/archery ranges for them were rather small.  Combined with the scrolling text, I mistook the wrong group of soldiers stacked on each other from simple proximity rather than actual sparring.  It looks like the rapid skill gain was from demonstrations from the melee dwarves, including a hammerdwarf who is a legendary teacher 8).  I've heard that demonstrations from skilled teachers is good, but wow.  I didn't realize it could outstrip sparring, at least for marksdwarves training in a melee skill.  I guess it makes some sense, though, since the sparring Xbows still preferred archery training.  When I get a chance, I'm going to split my marksdwarves back into the separate groups and try to recreate all the particulars of the squad that actually sparred.  It's difficult at the moment, since I'm getting slammed with sieges at the moment and I don't want to turn off invaders, but I might have to for !Science!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 11:26:18 am by VerdantSF »
Logged

Z1000000m

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 11:50:09 am »

A though just occured to me, will marksdwarves care about people being between themselves and the target?
What I am getting at is is it possible to setup a barracks to exploit friendly fire coming form nerfbolts to increase stat gain?
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 11:51:34 am »

No friendly fire atm.  While it would be nice for training, it would be hell in actual combat.

Man of Paper

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 11:57:40 am »

The Style of Balls

hehehehe
Logged

VerdantSF

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Archery training, Science
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 04:28:47 pm »

The Style of Balls

hehehehe

Hah, I forgot about that dwarf ;)

Mixed squads are possible and will train properly, although this doesn't imply anything about their practical usefulness. VerdantSF has tried out actually using them in combat and seems to be satisfied with their performance.

I wouldn't recommend this set-up without skilled shield users, though I'm not sure of the minimum level required.  I didn't try this idea out until I already had several dwarves with legendary shield skill.  At that point, the melee dwarves become a moving shield wall, allowing ranged dwarves to pew pew from the back.  Unlike marksdwarves hidden behind fortifications, they don't have to sit out of fights when elite bowmen show up. For years, I had the standard fortifications/drawbridge setup, and was happy with it, until the goblins started sending elite bowmen more frequently.  There were way too many fights when I had to pull up the drawbridge screen to protect my ranged dwarves.  Because the elite bowman was in the back, he was usually the last to die, so my ranged dwarves missed out on the action completely.  Nowadays, elite bowmen plink harmlessly against my melee legendaries, while my marksdwarves get to join the fun.

**Edit** Here's a save file taken right in the middle of a sparring match between two marksdwarves wielding only crossbows.  Check the combat log and you'll see Nil Orbgroup & Monom Thunderedlabored going at it.  Zoom in and you can confirm their inventory.  This test squad still isn't sparring as often as the original one.  Not sure what I did differently.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 09:31:16 pm by VerdantSF »
Logged