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[Telgin]

Funny thing is that I knew about that going in and still got my butt stomped repeatedly by the first two bosses.  The difficulty spike is kind of ridiculous no matter how you've played.

I don't think they ever added nonlethal ways to handle the bosses since the story (read: expensive cutscenes) demands that the bosses die, but they did add some ways to get assistance during the fights through hacking.  Supposedly you can hack some turrets to shoot at Barrett, for example, which probably beats watching him eat 3 rockets to the face and still not dying.

I really like Human Revolution, but boy did the original Deus Ex do a better job with the bosses.  It's hilarious that you can just run away from most of them, or do things like set LAM traps that you just lure them past.  I also had too much fun goomba stomping Maggie Chow, but she's arguably not a boss.

[Broseph Stalin]

I just want to say I admire your sense of self-control.

EDIT: Also, some of the things you've said so far have made me wonder if you don't want the world to revolve around the player.

Sure, the player character is a central figure and all, but I don't think the world would exactly move for them, and I also don't think the player should have 100% total control over what happens to them or to others. Otherwise, that causes other things in the plot to break, or clashes with the messages the creators wanted to send.

Not at all, I like it when characters have other things going on I find it interesting when I'm the least important thing in their day and I'm fine with characters being uncooperative. It only irks when the world doesn't acknowledge that's whats happening or treats it as something to breeze over. Someone who won't give you directions until you do their errands is a real mother fucker and the way you interact with them going forward will pretty much revolve around that.

In the Fallout 3 example the same basic thing happens twice. In Megaton Colin Moriarty refuses to tell you where your father went until you pay him or murder a prostitute. The writing is very aware that Colin is being a prick. Three Dog actually does it worse, he doesn't want a couple caps or the murder of a largely defenseless woman, he wants you to fight an army of super mutants but there's no sense that the game recognizes it.

You're talking about clashing with the message but that's exactly what's happening, there is an enormous disconnect between how the game treats these characters and how these characters behave. It's like the locked door that's immune to bashing, hacking, or burning but weak to side quests- it's a just a way to work something into the story without trying very hard.

[AzyWng]

Now, the “Indestructible locked door” issue you describe (and the examples where you have to do this thing) I can understand a lot better.

The only alternative I can think of right now is making the side quests an option, but causing people you do them for to help you in some fashion (I mean, more than just some caps, supplies, or a unique weapon).

Not sure what nature the help would come in, though.

[Broseph Stalin]

Now, the “Indestructible locked door” issue you describe (and the examples where you have to do this thing) I can understand a lot better.

The only alternative I can think of right now is making the side quests an option, but causing people you do them for to help you in some fashion (I mean, more than just some caps, supplies, or a unique weapon).

Not sure what nature the help would come in, though.

The quests can still be mandatory, I mentioned it earlier but if you make the thing the player's seeking COST something for the NPC the relationship changes. Then they're no longer a jerk holding your interests hostage, they're someone you're cooperating with.

For the indestructible door issue I know it's probably a pain in the ass to implement but I think having additional solutions that recognized the problem was just a door would be nice. Like if instead of questing for whatever the thing was you had the option to quest for explosives or digging equipment.

[Rolan7]

The quests can still be mandatory, I mentioned it earlier but if you make the thing the player's seeking COST something for the NPC the relationship changes. Then they're no longer a jerk holding your interests hostage, they're someone you're cooperating with.

Sorry to quibble but I don't think it does change.  If an NPC needs something from you, and has information you need, why should they just volunteer their bargaining chip?

Three-Dog needs equipment for his broadcasting setup (the fact that it's on the other side of a Super Mutant army is a game construct, and the PC is well-equipped to fight their way through).  He knows where your father went, and that your father is actually very competent and not in imminent danger.  Since there's no rush, he asks for your help.

As a kicker, you can refuse, and he'll still tell you - if you win him over with a speech check.  Leaves him screwed, but I guess he feels sorry for you.

Edit:  I kinda overstated that, actually.  Your father might be in danger for all 3Dog knows, and the super mutant army is an in-universe barrier he expects you to get through (though IIRC the Brotherhood helps a lot).

[Reelya]

if you make the thing the player's seeking COST something for the NPC the relationship changes.

Except that's not very realistic actually, unless you're IRL friends, people don't deal like that. Especially people in a post-apocalyptic dog eat dog world.

Say the guy has information, so it costs him nothing to give it to you, so you think he should, since he's no worse off for doing so. But he is - he's paid opportunity cost, which is an important thing to take into account in any economic transaction.

For example, if he has some information that he can only sell to one person, and someone else would buy the information for $100 then if he gives it to you for free, even though the information "cost" him nothing, he's out $100. Similarly, if the information is worth it to you that he could get you to conduct some task that's valued by him at $100, then if he doesn't ask you to do the task, he's also out $100 in value.

An example: say he has information for you, that was "free", but "terrorists got my daughter" and he knows you have the ability take them out, then if he gives you the information for "free", he didn't really give it for free, he gave it at the cost of his daughter's life. If the NPC doesn't ask you to do the difficult task then the information wasn't "free" it cost him whatever the opportunity cost of that task's completion was.

[Broseph Stalin]

Sorry to quibble but I don't think it does change.  If an NPC needs something from you, and has information you need, why should they just volunteer their bargaining chip?

Three-Dog needs equipment for his broadcasting setup (the fact that it's on the other side of a Super Mutant army is a game construct, and the PC is well-equipped to fight their way through).  He knows where your father went, and that your father is actually very competent and not in imminent danger.  Since there's no rush, he asks for your help.

As a kicker, you can refuse, and he'll still tell you - if you win him over with a speech check.  Leaves him screwed, but I guess he feels sorry for you.

Edit:  I kinda overstated that, actually.  Your father might be in danger for all 3Dog knows, and the super mutant army is an in-universe barrier he expects you to get through (though IIRC the Brotherhood helps a lot).

Because it costs them nothing. I'm not saying it's irrational I'm saying it's fundamentally hostile. If you find a CPA stuck in a hole it would make sense to refuse to let them out of the hole until they do your taxes but it would make you a really awful person.  It's a REALLY uncool thing to do and the game doesn't seem to recognize that.

Three dog doesn't know it but your father is actually trapped in a simulation controlled by an insane doctor. Every moment Three Dog delays you is another moment that he's trapped a dog and subject to the sadistic whims of Dr.Braun.

Except that's not very realistic actually, unless you're IRL friends, people don't deal like that. Especially people in a post-apocalyptic dog eat dog world.

Say the guy has information, so it costs him nothing to give it to you, so you think he should, since he's no worse off for doing so. But he is - he's paid opportunity cost, which is an important thing to take into account in any economic transaction.

If you ask someone the time and they ask you to wash their car first they're a real prick. Again, this is logical but it's a real dick move, I don't mind it happening as much as I mind the lack of recognition that it's awful. I mean there's also the fact that if you think someone can defeat an army of super mutants and you hold information over them then you probably shouldn't be too surprised if upon giving them that information they pull out a shotgun and Margaret gets a promotion.   

[NullForceOmega]

@Reelya:  That's a reasonable assertion, but at the same time there is an issue of cost/benefit for the player, sure, Threedog has a busted antenna, but how exactly is forcing a kid who is looking for his missing parent to walk into a heavily guarded location manned by super-human living war machines that have been known to eat people just because in any way equivalent to the payment of the words, "Go to Rivet City"?  Which is, of course, just another stop among many in this chain of events, and Dr Li isn't exactly helpful either (more excusable, she's a straight up bitch from the moment you meet her all the way up to the end of Fallout 4), she just vaguely tells you that James went to the old purifier site which is, again, filled with jolly green giants.

The transaction is in no way equal here, you are being asked to do something exceedingly dangerous for very minimal return, hell, the only way to get a reasonable return (and I use that 'reasonable' very loosely) is to skip Threedog altogether and come back after you've already met up with your father, that way you at the least get a key to a locked up store of weapons and ammo.

[Reelya]

"The transaction is in no way equal here" sounds kind of like a lot of things though.

EDIT: However, opportunity cost needs to be evaluated both ways. I haven't played it, but perhaps knowing to go to rivet city saves you a lot of time and effort (which would be more prevalent if you're avoiding internet spoilers. Any in-game information is reduced to worthless if you get an idea what you're meant to do via outside-the-game sources or if you save/restore the game even). That way, you avoided a lot of costs. That's the payment. Similarly, if Threedog doesn't get your help in return for the payment then he incurs the opportunity costs as I stated.

[Rolan7]

While I understand the frustration, the information is extremely valuable to the PC and the 3Dog really needs the PC's help.  The Brotherhood is already fighting the mutants in the area, but only the PC can make it through to retrieve the thing.

NPCs are very bad at retrieving things, dontcha know, that's why fetch quests are so common   Yeah, that part's arbitrary.  But 3Dog really does need the PC's help.  The "they're just a child" argument doesn't really work when the PC has survived up to this point, including the battle outside.

Again, if 3Dog just gives up the information, he's left with nothing.  If he thinks the PC can accomplish the quest (which I think is fair) it's not unreasonable to ask it first.
Or be convinced to give up the information anyway, by a persuasive PC.

[Broseph Stalin]

"The transaction is in no way equal here" sounds kind of like a lot of things though.

EDIT: However, opportunity cost needs to be evaluated both ways. I haven't played it, but perhaps knowing to go to rivet city saves you a lot of time and effort (which would be more prevalent if you're avoiding internet spoilers. Any in-game information is reduced to worthless if you get an idea what you're meant to do via outside-the-game sources or if you save/restore the game even). That way, you avoided a lot of costs. That's the payment. Similarly, if Threedog doesn't get your help in return for the payment then he incurs the opportunity costs as I stated.

This isn't unequal it's utterly leonine.

The issue is you're exchanging something totally effortless for something that involves mortal danger.

While I understand the frustration, the information is extremely valuable to the PC and the 3Dog really needs the PC's help.  The Brotherhood is already fighting the mutants in the area, but only the PC can make it through to retrieve the thing.

NPCs are very bad at retrieving things, dontcha know, that's why fetch quests are so common   Yeah, that part's arbitrary.  But 3Dog really does need the PC's help.  The "they're just a child" argument doesn't really work when the PC has survived up to this point, including the battle outside.

Again, if 3Dog just gives up the information, he's left with nothing.  If he thinks the PC can accomplish the quest (which I think is fair) it's not unreasonable to ask it first.
Or be convinced to give up the information anyway, by a persuasive PC.

Three Dog actually does reward you for doing the quest if you've already found your dad when you meet him. Again, CPA in the hole, you do derive a benefit it's terrible.   

[NullForceOmega]

No, knowing about Rivet City saves you absolutely no time whatsoever.  It is exactly the same as if you pass Threedogs speech check and get him to give you the information for free, it's just another goddamn waypoint that gives you nothing of meaning, unless finding out that Madison Li is a complete cunt is somehow a positive for someone.

Even if the exchange isn't completely equal it should still be at the very least acceptable, and the quest structure of this example in particular is egregiously bad, because the resources you expend simply allow you the opportunity to expend more resources for another opportunity, that, and here's a shocker, simply allows you the opportunity to expend more resources for what at last becomes the information you actually need.  And at no point in this chain does the player receive ANYTHING to actually help them, Threedog says thanks and scoots you out the door (right back into a super-mutant and ghoul infested urban ruin), then Madison just sends you to another super-mutant infested ruin with total disregard for you as a human being, and finally, after three arduous treks through the wreckage of DC and brawling your way through the purifier, you finally get the information you want, which just sends you to the opposite side of the worldspace, to enter a simulation run by a twisted psychopath where you have to jump through more hoops (or massively sequence break) to get James and yourself out.

The main quest of Fallout 3 is completely comprised of 'fuck you, go do this now'.  And to my perspective that is absolutely terrible design philosophy.

And no Rolan, the BoS do not help in any meaningful way whatsoever when you go to the museum of technology, they might gun down a mutant or two outside but you are the one who has to go inside the building alone, kill all the mutants inside, get the dish, and install it.  This is enormously expensive in terms of the resources you have to expend, either in the form of weapons and ammo (and stimpacks) or stealthboys.   And the payout is, "Go talk to Madison, later" and booted out the door into the DC ruins.

[scriver]

And once again, Broseph suggested above to, instead of making Threedog and adversarial hinder that you need to do a quest in exchange for the info from, make Threedog's need in line with what you want. Broseph suggested using the radio to ask for Dad's location.

That way, he isn't in the way. You are working together to get further on the way.

But if you make him a hinder, if you make him deliberately being a hinder because he gets something out of it while you get to risk life and limb, don't tell it like he isn't a fucking ass. Because he is.

[NullForceOmega]

Yes, that^^ exactly, make it something beneficial to the player, not an active hindrance to their progress.  "Help me so I can help you", not "Help me, now fuck off"

Here's another simple fact about the game, it costs far less in resources and is much easier simply due to world design to just wander down to Rivet city on your own, and through regular conversation be pointed in Madison's direction.  Hell, that's exactly what happened to me on my first playthrough.

[Rolan7]

Agreed - if you already know where to go, you don't need ThreeDog to tell you
That's actually cool design, in my opinion.  If an experienced player wants to skip the quest, or any player wants to just search the entire waste on their own, they can ignore the trail of hints.

I suppose that repairing the transmitter in order to learn a clue from broadcasts is a good idea.  But there's nothing inherently dickish about asking for payment for vital information, particularly when the NPC is themselves desperate for help.

Would it be better if ThreeDog gave you the information immediately, but made you promise to come back and repair the transmitter at your leisure?  Or is that still dickish?