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[muldrake]

Which is why it peaves me... I am the player but while I am controlling the character... they are still a character in that narrative. Anything I personally do outside the game or in the menus or anything like that isn't something they do (with few notable exceptions)

I doubt I'd have ever even been able to get started, much less reach my level of excellence abject mediocrity at DF without reading an entire book on it first (Getting Started With Dwarf Fortress).

[Neonivek]

Motorcycles

Motorcycles are probably one of the coolest vehicles ever created! They are like if a racing car and a horse had a baby and that baby was a loose cannon who didn't play by the rules! No one takes Motorcycle off the case as he throws his badge into the Urinal "Opps, what an accident" ~but it wasn't an accident~

Man it must be awesome riding motorcycles in videogames! It must be unmitigated fun!

What was that? They are usually the worst most unfun vehicles in the games they are in to the point where having an ok motorcycle is an exception? Well dang it!

The usual folly is that they make motorcycles incredibly risky to drive, which one could argue realism but Cars are kind of tanks in those games. This risk is usually not rewarded as the cycle either isn't that much faster then other transportation or worse! IS soo much faster that it is impossible to drive (I love the Supercycle in GTA1... but you aren't gonna keep it).

[Arbinire]

I can agree a bit with the metagaming, it's one of the reasons I really don't understand why Final Fantasy 7 got so much love.  If you just play the game without the strategy guide, it was a disjointed mess, you wouldn't really know which point you needed to get to for chocobo breeding, getting knights of the round, fighting the weapons, etc.

That said though I will defend The Secret World for it's use of it because that was it's Schtick from day one.  The whole marketing campaign for the game leading up to release was an Alternate Reality Game where people had to find clues and go on internet scavenger hunts for new information about the game.  Even in game IIRC your character has a PDA or some such, and there is an in-game web browser to reflect that it is your character doing the sleuthing.  The premise of the game is built around the idea.  I can understand not enjoying it, but in this instance it's not so much meta-gaming as it is a core gameplay mechanic.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I thought that was the case when I defended it, but I didn't know for sure so I didn't bring it up. I'm glad I wasn't wrong.

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: abuse of Steam's tag system. No, people, CS:GO is not a "Strategy" game. Yes, there is strategy involved in most games, no, it is not part of the "Strategy" genre.

[itisnotlogical]

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wish Steam was a bit more stringent with how many tags need to match before it recommends me a game. I keep seeing Slender clone shit on the front page because of "First Person" and "Atmospheric" games I play.

[Neonivek]

Here's a pet peeve of mine: abuse of Steam's tag system. No, people, CS:GO is not a "Strategy" game. Yes, there is strategy involved in most games, no, it is not part of the "Strategy" genre.

Given I have had someone argue with me that Tycoon games are not simulation games because they are incredibly shallow...

Most people do not understand what the genres are or what they signify.

And I am not even talking about, for example, RPGs (Which are an offshoot of the Adventure Genre and are NOT about story)

[Urist McScoopbeard]

Yes, many people today lack a firm grasp of genre or are simply too busy fangirling to abide by convention. Same thing happens in literature too.

[Neonivek]

Yes, many people today lack a firm grasp of genre or are simply too busy fangirling to abide by convention. Same thing happens in literature too.

People have this WEIRD idea that genres are about quality... When Genre is categorical and usually intent.

A Horror that isn't scary is still part of the horror genre.

RPG at least has some leniency in that its name is completely misleading (As said it is a offshoot of Adventure games that originally signified games that were similar to... Well dungeons and dragons type games. They almost completely lacked stories or really strongly defined roles)

a Genre is kind of more similar to a style than a quality... at least for videogames. They are a LOT easier to understand when you either understand their histories or their contemporaries.

Books are more clean cut until you get into subgenres like... Low fantasy (which has no set definition!).

Actually subgenres mess everything up...

[Rolan7]

I would actually wonder if a Tycoon game is simulation.  I see simulation as games which emphasize realism, which I think you're complaining about.

Thing is, such definitions are even more mutable than most!  They're akin to slang, but a little more respectable.  They're what a certain group (us gamers) uses to describe things.  And that is in flux...  And that is kinda wonderful.

Like I just said, I think "simulation" games should emphasize realism, but really it's a matter of what terms survive the general discourse.
There is no recourse

[Neonivek]

I would actually wonder if a Tycoon game is simulation.  I see simulation as games which emphasize realism, which I think you're complaining about.

Thing is, such definitions are even more mutable than most!  They're akin to slang, but a little more respectable.  They're what a certain group (us gamers) uses to describe things.  And that is in flux...  And that is kinda wonderful.

Like I just said, I think "simulation" games should emphasize realism, but really it's a matter of what terms survive the general discourse.
There is no recourse

A simulation doesn't have to be realistic, but the main point of the game is to simulate... well... a system and the rules within it. At least to a certain degree. I know this phrase can easily be misinterpreted, but it "Needs to simulate something". Creatures is a simulation of completely alien creatures (with advanced biochemistry to admit... and a ecosystem). As well the main entertainment is through the simulation (I am all sorts of vague!)

Though some people have argued that some simulation games would be better considered to be part of the Buisness Strategy genre.

Which is why Wikipedia lists Pizza Tycoon as a simulation... and Gamefaqs lists it as a strategy game. Which is fair enough.

Though remember that Tycoon is a huge variety of games... some more realistic then others.

Dwarf Fortress is kind of a hybrid that does add a bit of simulation... though Dwarf Fortress skirts across a lot of genres. The only one it is firmly within is RPG.

[itisnotlogical]

Fuck not even close to the right thread. Ignore me, I'm bad.

[Jopax]

People have this WEIRD idea that genres are about quality... When Genre is categorical and usually intent.

A Horror that isn't scary is still part of the horror genre.

See, I have issue with this statement, it claims that something can belong to a certain classification even when it's without the very thing that defines that classification. It's the same as building a bike and calling it a plane, sure it can't fly but it's still a part of the plane family of vehicles because I called it a plane when I built it.

So not, I don't think you can call a game that lacks the very thing that makes horror games (the fear) a horror game, because at that point you've changed the definition of what a horror game is and it kinda loses meaning. You know, same as calling CSGO a strategy is changing the contextual meaning of that genre into something useless, at that point just call every game out there an RPG and be done with it.

[Neonivek]

People have this WEIRD idea that genres are about quality... When Genre is categorical and usually intent.

A Horror that isn't scary is still part of the horror genre.

See, I have issue with this statement, it claims that something can belong to a certain classification even when it's without the very thing that defines that classification. It's the same as building a bike and calling it a plane, sure it can't fly but it's still a part of the plane family of vehicles because I called it a plane when I built it.

So not, I don't think you can call a game that lacks the very thing that makes horror games (the fear) a horror game, because at that point you've changed the definition of what a horror game is and it kinda loses meaning. You know, same as calling CSGO a strategy is changing the contextual meaning of that genre into something useless, at that point just call every game out there an RPG and be done with it.

The reason why this MUST be the case is a lot more obvious with examples.

Resident Evil is a survival horror game... But some people don't find it scary... Is it not a horror game?

Dora the Explorer is a puzzle/Adventure game for children... But it isn't challenging at all for adults, the people who create these categories... So it can't be a puzzle game?

A horror game that isn't scary still TRIES to be a horror and still has elements that makes it obvious that it is a horror.

While YES... a game that insists it is horror... but has no horror elements or style. Isn't a horror... (So if game developers INSISTED CSGO was a horror... it wouldn't be the case)

A Horror that isn't scary, but has horror elements and style... Is a horror.

---

Also Ironically... Why not call CSGO a strategy game under the definition you created? If a horror game that isn't scary isn't a horror game... Thus being scary is 100% what makes it a horror game.

So a strategy game must be any game that makes you use a strategy.

[Jopax]

Granted my view on it is entirely subjective, but how else would you define the horror genre? What exactly would be the genre defining tropes? Monsters? Plenty of games have monsters of various scary or terrifying persuasions. The way you control your character? That's a sliding scale if anything and has changed troughout the years. The only constant element of the genre is the need to be scary, if it isn't scary it's an attempt at a horror at best.

As far as CSGO goes, it's why I said contextual, because stratey in the context of videogames has, as far as I can remember videogames been always associated with the RTS/TBS/GS genres and their permutations. The same goes for horror games, while the exact device has shifted over the years from stuff like Silent Hill to the FNAF craze of recent years the one constant has be the scary bits.

I do realise that this may seem contradictory to some extent but I honestly think that different genres deserve different views on what qualifies a game for such a genre. While horror is entirely subjective, something like RTS isn't and I think it's mostly down to the fact that horror isn't so much a genre unto itself as it is a theme for any give genre. Same as comedy, romance and what have you. You don't have it standing on it's own two feet because it has none, instead it piggybacks on other core genres to enhance them to one degree or another. It's why RE4 is a survival-horror where the focus isn't on shitting your pants because scary monsters, it's shitting your pants because you're trying to stay alive troughout it all and the monsters themselves could be anything, but the core game would still be a survival TPS.

(unrelated, but writing this has actually made me properly coalesce my thoughts on the matter for the first time ever as it was always a sort of stance but since it never got properly challenged I never had the chance to hammer it out into something concrete, thanks Neo )