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[Neonivek]

Wasn't there a big fuss when they changed siege battles to be a section of the city in Total War: Warhammer instead of the whole city scaled down?

I wouldn't be surprised

But then again city battles were one of the worst parts of the Total War series because... frankly... they are BAAAAAAAD at it.

[Iceblaster]

I like them in Medieval 2 :v

Though that could be because I loooove watching my catapults/bombards fire on a city :3

[Sergius]

I'm not talking about making huge, uninteresting, mostly empty or procedurally generated areas. I'm talking about only modeling the points of interest. Even if that means having a scaled down "exterior" of the city (the Bethesda games already do it with house interiors). A lot of games already use some sort of transitions anyway.

EDIT: Ok, take for example, the city of Stormreach in DDO. It's fairly big, but the actual zones that you visit are few (they're still like 70% of the total area though). That still leaves a lot of space that you don't know, where people could live completely cramped. Or the city could be 10 times bigger and the areas wouldn't change.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[itisnotlogical]

It is because what a developer says and what they truly think are two different things.

Which takes more work? Making a very tiny city

Or making a huge city but with a few select important points?

The thing is, you can make a small sandbox feel bigger relatively easily (i.e. for less effort than it takes to make a large, emptier one). Smaller locations with a small amount of NPCs oftentimes feel bigger than they actually are if you are willing to lead the player down less straight paths to get to important locations or having the location crisscrossed with smaller passageways. Surrounding the area with a large wall type thing also works, as does adding a certain amount of verticality to the whole arrangement.

It's a matter of layout, not so much adding more locations and/or NPCs. If you want to make your cities feel bigger than they are, it helps a bunch.

(also this slightly extends into discussing the merits of smaller, denser sandboxes as compared to larger, more sparse ones)

Side comment but I hated Megaton in FO3. Every time I went there, I had to make two or three loops around the catwalks to find all the places I wanted. The verticality there just made it a huge pain in the ass. Whiterun's better but still a little confusing coming downhill.

[SeriousConcentrate]

snip

I assume Kirkwall in Dragon Age 2 would be another example of what you mean; the travel map is basically... I don't remember, like ten points of interest around the entire city with a day/night alteration?

[miauw62]

It is because what a developer says and what they truly think are two different things.

Which takes more work? Making a very tiny city

Or making a huge city but with a few select important points?

The thing is, you can make a small sandbox feel bigger relatively easily (i.e. for less effort than it takes to make a large, emptier one). Smaller locations with a small amount of NPCs oftentimes feel bigger than they actually are if you are willing to lead the player down less straight paths to get to important locations or having the location crisscrossed with smaller passageways. Surrounding the area with a large wall type thing also works, as does adding a certain amount of verticality to the whole arrangement.

It's a matter of layout, not so much adding more locations and/or NPCs. If you want to make your cities feel bigger than they are, it helps a bunch.

(also this slightly extends into discussing the merits of smaller, denser sandboxes as compared to larger, more sparse ones)

Side comment but I hated Megaton in FO3. Every time I went there, I had to make two or three loops around the catwalks to find all the places I wanted. The verticality there just made it a huge pain in the ass. Whiterun's better but still a little confusing coming downhill.

I was always completely lost in Whiterun at first. Couldn't even find Breezehome. It's actually not that complex, though. So it's pretty weird how easily I got lost. Same thing for Solitude... Most towns in Skyrim, really.

[Neonivek]

And yet they are all easier to navigate then ANY town/city in Albion.

[Krevsin]

It is because what a developer says and what they truly think are two different things.

Which takes more work? Making a very tiny city

Or making a huge city but with a few select important points?

The thing is, you can make a small sandbox feel bigger relatively easily (i.e. for less effort than it takes to make a large, emptier one). Smaller locations with a small amount of NPCs oftentimes feel bigger than they actually are if you are willing to lead the player down less straight paths to get to important locations or having the location crisscrossed with smaller passageways. Surrounding the area with a large wall type thing also works, as does adding a certain amount of verticality to the whole arrangement.

It's a matter of layout, not so much adding more locations and/or NPCs. If you want to make your cities feel bigger than they are, it helps a bunch.

(also this slightly extends into discussing the merits of smaller, denser sandboxes as compared to larger, more sparse ones)

Side comment but I hated Megaton in FO3. Every time I went there, I had to make two or three loops around the catwalks to find all the places I wanted. The verticality there just made it a huge pain in the ass. Whiterun's better but still a little confusing coming downhill.

Oh I also hated Megaton in FO3. It has some verticality but the locations of places and the paths to get there are very poorly signposted and presented to the player. In fact I hated pretty much every settlement in Fallout 3 for being labyrinthine and confusingly laid out with poor signposting.

Hell, even Rivet city which is located in a bloody aircraft carrier I got lost in several times.

Compare and contrast to Witcher 3's Novigrad which is an enormous city and more confusing and yet I pretty much always knew where I was after spending some time there. Or the city of Prague in the new Deus Ex. Or the hubworlds in Deus Ex human revolution. Or the levels in the old Deus Ex. Or the levels in Thief (where they at some points intentionally make the layouts confusing and labyrinthine just to mess with the player and make them feel lost).

[Neonivek]

What is funny is you know what old cities would actually be vast but easy to find all the important places?

Real life old cities

Where all the stores, accomidations, and often legal and governmental buildings were built on the one road.

[Neonivek]

Ok here is a huge one

Sorry you aren't Curb Stomping Good Enough!

So you are going through the game and you are noticing that you are absolutely murdering all the enemies and even minibosses within seconds. Things are getting boring and you just end up fighting the boss...

BOOM! The Boss kills you!

Ohh you didn't create a Boss Killing Squad?

So you are going through the game and you are murdering all the enemies left and right. Things are getting boring and you just end up fighting the boss!

Boom! the Boss Kills you because you actually had to create a team to kill JUST that boss.

---

Look I know bosses need to be tough but the gameplay BEFORE a boss is meant to be a sort of obstacle course that trains and tests you to see if your ready for the boss.

To have the boss be completely unrelated to the game before (unless the boss is meant to be refreshing) sure does suck.

[pikachu17]

when a yes or no question has only one correct answer
I hate it when videogames have someone ask a yes-or-no question, but only one answer will be accepted.
for instance, when I don't want to join Mr. E's army because he's probably going to turn out to be evil, and then my character is going to whine about joining him.
Mr. E:Want to join my army?(yes or no?)
Me:no.
Mr. E:Oh, you kidder. Want to join my army?
Me: NO!
Mr. E: why, you kidder! So, don't you REALLY want to join my army?
ME: not at all.
Mr. E: why, you kidder! So, don't you REALLY want to join my army?
ME: not at all.
Mr. E: why, you kidder! So, don't you REALLY want to join my army?
ME: not at all.
Mr. E: why, you kidder! So, don't you REALLY want to join my army?
ME: Fine!
later, after Mr. E betrays you
Mr. E: You were a fool to join my army!
Me: Seriously?
--------
I mean a choice that doesn't actually affect anything isn't perfect, but if you don't want the player to have a choice, at least don't make it appear that they have any choice, and then just have you rejected if you don't choose the right one.

[Rolan7]

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ButThouMust

@Neonivek
Yeah, those sound like puzzle bosses...  Which are fine when they just make you stop and adjust tactics, but kinda lame when you're expected to die a couple times.  At least in games with non-canon death.  Somehow, in canon, the heroes mysteriously know exactly what to do...

[Neonivek]

Naw the first one is just that some games are HORRIBLY balanced.

"Last Remnant" a flawed game I'd love to play a sequel of... Is easy, incredibly easy, INCREDIBLY BORINGLY EASY!!! and it throws constant missions after missions after missions... all of which you will snore your way through.

Then when you are finally back to the main story you MUST be thinking "Wow, I must be seriously overleveled for this game" Nope!

The Boss is on a whole other level! You're overleveled +10 but you REALLY needed to be Overleveled +20

Sure Romancing Saga did it with a HUGE difference between everything you fought before and himself... But at LEAST they hyped up what a unstoppable killing machine the last boss was and focused the entire game around destroying him... knowing that even with everything you learned, everything you obtained... It might not be enough. Plus it was the LAST boss and the only two other bosses are secret super bosses ALSO hyped up as being of similar power.

[Darkmere]

I've been playing a little Grim Dawn lately as a stress reliever. After giving up and cheating in a few items to complete one character (out of 5 max-levels), I did some grinding of the Crucible DLC. It's kind of a PvE arena mode, where you take on waves of monsters for mad lewtz yo.

There's 150 waves, you can cash out early the but reward for finishing anything less than 150 is a waste of time.

So, there's something around wave 140 and 149 that just kills any character I have, with any amount of tankiness, in under a second. I have no idea what it is, where it's from, or why it happens, but I can just about stand there in one spot for any other single wave. Not those, instant death to my high-health sword and board max-resistance character.

Just chiming it, coz it feels like the unbalanced boss shit we're talking about now.

[Neonivek]

Relationship System


Ok I've given this a lot of thought. Since on the surface this seems like a good thing and I could probably think of a few games that did it well (Not Bioware, Bethesda, Origin, or any of the major companies mind you)...

Yet I guess the issue always boils down to the same thing... You are just telling people what they want to hear. You aren't a hostage negotiator, you are trying to be their friends and to earn their trust. By always saying what they want to hear you are just tricking them into liking you. Sure there are games where someone gains relationship by doing the opposite of what they say they want, but that is the same thing just a twist on the formula.

And even then because games have to "account" to the fact that they either hate you or love you... Their dialog reflects this by being very dry. (Then again most videogame dialog is very dry. As if every character writes their dialog into a book and then speaks it outloud)

When I think of the characters I've been personally attached to as if they really were my friend. I keep going back to games where I actually had very little impact like Magic Pengel. Sure there are exceptions but those have always been characters who were just so well done and expressive I just forget about the whole stupid relationship system (or where "telling them what they want to hear" is just "Don't be a heartless bastard")