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[miauw62]

the problem is that "crafting" doesnt actually mean anything

youre turning resources into a usually more useful resource, which occurs in basically most games at some level.

Yeah, good crafting exists in pretty much every game and it's called "combat". You convert your time, skills, ammo, healing potions and equipment's durability into new stuff in a highly interesting manner, even though you can usually predict what you'll be getting (barring randomness on loot) - because combat is an interesting process.

Clicking on a menu, or playing a primitive minigame, or tetris-ing the required components into position - those are not interesting. Thus, crafting is usually seen as a not interesting thing - because it is not interesting!

Yeah pretty much although it's even more general than that. A ton of games are about intelligent management (which includes conversion) of resources to win. Even in a shooter like warframe you have to consider when to make a dash for the objective (health), when to use your abilities (energy), etc.

The less mechanical skill a game requires, the more pronounced this is. A game like Magic, which requires no mechanical skill apart from proper shuffling techniques, can basically entirely be viewed as managing and trading various resources (life, cards, tempo, mana...) to achieve victory.

The crafting in Warframe exists mostly as a motivator. You have to play more to actually get the items you want, and when you do get them it feels like more of an achievement because you worked for it. This also plays heavily into the fact that Warframe is a game that encourages you to play with your friends,and since acquisition of weapons, warframes, etc is nontrivial it contributes to each player feeling unique.

Obviously much of this could be achieved through quest rewards, but I think crafting in this manner is an equally valid way of distributing items.

[Calidovi]

Yeah, good crafting exists in pretty much every game and it's called "combat". You convert your time, skills, ammo, healing potions and equipment's durability into new stuff in a highly interesting manner, even though you can usually predict what you'll be getting (barring randomness on loot) - because combat is an interesting process.

2deep4me

[Shadowlord]

Thus, crafting is usually seen as a not interesting thing - because it is not interesting!

Tell that to the Dead Rising series.

Not... the best... example... Given how its latest outing went.

I've only played Dead Rising 2. It was somewhat limited, or seemed to be, but was simple and more or less what the game was built around.

As for "combat is crafting," how does someone come to that conclusion? The whole point of crafting is to be able to choose what you are making, to make what you choose, it's choice. Combat just throws any random thing, or nothing, at you. Quest rewards throw some specific rewards at you, or something random, neither of which are your choice unless you already know what it's going to give you and are doing the quest just to get it (e.g. certain daedric quests in skyrim).

[miauw62]

Combat is crafting because combat is trading of resources for some sort of gain, much like crafting is.

Your mistake is in assuming that there is one single concept of "crafting" in games when it is almost always a means to an end which is designed in function of other game elements. Skyrims crafting can hardly be compared to XCOMs, which is nothing like Warframe's.

[Shadowlord]

That definition seems a bit too broad. Is time a resource? It's the only resource I spent in combat in Kingdoms of Amalur. I swirled my staff and there were magical explosions and everything just died.

[miauw62]

i assume your character has health, and probably a mana bar somewhere not using a resource doesn't mean it doesn't exist. you having an op item in a specific game isn't really a very compelling argument.

a very clear example in an FPS is TF2, which is all about managing resources: health, ammo, position, teammates, etc.

[Silverthrone]

It was just a time sink, though. Even without the skeleton key you basically had infinite lockpicks after early-game.

That's what I felt, too, after a while. Well, after you got over the threshold of being careful with the few lockpicks you had. It always sort of felt as if you were feeding the chests with lockpicks in return for the loot (five septims, one glazed clay jug, a roll of cloth and maybe some calipers if you've been good). I still like it better than just a skill or stat check, though. Some reinforcement that you are actually picking a lock, even if it's gotten ridiculously easy. If it's short and snacky, I don't mind a little time sink.

That said, Oblivion had an alternative, opening it with alteration magic (effectively a standard skill check, but it's at least a bit better). I wish more games would do that sometimes.

[UXLZ]

There was also taking the third option of force-feeding the chest lockpicks via autocomplete until it magically opens.

[SeriousConcentrate]

I believe I've mentioned my stance on lockpicking minigames previously in this thread, but to reiterate: just do a damn skill check and let me open the thing instead of doing a repetitive minigame that got old the third time around.

[Silverthrone]

There was also taking the third option of force-feeding the chest lockpicks via autocomplete until it magically opens.

Yes, that was odd. It smells of compromise, some focus group results coming from upstairs or some of the designers that couldn't reach another agreement.

I believe I've mentioned my stance on lockpicking minigames previously in this thread, but to reiterate: just do a damn skill check and let me open the thing instead of doing a repetitive minigame that got old the third time around.

But why bother with locks at all, then? That'd just be putting skillpoints in a passive "moar loot plz"-tree. Maybe if it was an extra side-perk to Strength or Defty Handness or something, but still, it would just mean some builds won't get the extra loot, or that all builds get a lock opening mechanic. So no reason to bother then, either.

[SeriousConcentrate]

Yeah, but at the same time, if you're good at the minigame then your lockpick skill of 3 might as well be the same as 100, making that skill meaningless and forcing you to do a minigame that you hate over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

[Gunner-Chan]

OOO for oblivion at least made it so if a lock was just too hard for you then you'd be unable to attempt lockpicking. But that said, it's still better than the silly "minigame" in wizardry 6-8. That one is literally just clicking on tumblers till they're all open, but they're die rolls instead of skill rolls. Thanks to the way the games are set up more often than not it's just clicking till they all stay up, actual jamming is super rare.

That said, disarming traps requiring actually identifying the trap is interesting.

[Silverthrone]

But still, why have locks at all, then? But I suppose that is what I liked about the lockpicking spells. Seems like a decent common ground. One button, done, if you don't want to do the minigame. That's something, at least, you're still doing something in-game to open the lock.

[Insanegame27]

Best lockpicking minigame I ever saw, I can't remember what the game was called. Basically, the lock difficulty was in percentages - for example, 70%. A 70% lock had a lock that had a 70% chance to jam if you failed to pick the lock. Once the lock was jammed, the only way to get it open was to break the lock, which alerted any nearby enemies. If you jammed the lock then you couldn't open it even with the key unless you break into it.

[SeriousConcentrate]

But still, why have locks at all, then?

To gate off equipment/items if you're not running a thief build. If you're putting points into Lockpicking, you're making a conscious decision not to put them in, say, Speech or Energy Weapons or whatever (to use Fallout skills as an example). The items you get are a reward for investing into a non-combat skill.