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[Shadowlord]

No, the ethic of modern game developers is that you get the game for free, and then you are presented with the opportunity to buy items which are essentially cheats, such as additional turns when you're about to lose, and like a drug dealer, they offer you a free sample of each to get you hooked. #candycrush

[Reelya]

Mmh.  The ethic of modern game developers is if you buy the game you should be able to see everything in it regardless of how good you are at the game.  This gets looked down on a lot as casual but I would argue its a good thing.  Like you say its not necessarily a fun thing to get stuck.

This is why RPGs still have grinding, even though everyone hates grinding. What does grinding do? It makes play balance easier and acts as a dynamic level of difficulty. And the odd thing is that people seem to see grinding as a leet thing, when in fact, it's the easy-mode button.

[Darkmere]

everyone hates grinding

Go try that one at the Grim Dawn forums. People are saying around 1,000 hours to accrue a decent selection of gear is way too fast.

[EnigmaticHat]

No, the ethic of modern game developers is that you get the game for free, and then you are presented with the opportunity to buy items which are essentially cheats, such as additional turns when you're about to lose, and like a drug dealer, they offer you a free sample of each to get you hooked. #candycrush

Sorry, *an* ethic of modern game developers.

[miauw62]

People wanting stuff to be "hardcore" is a problem, but I think a bigger problem is making meaningful difficulty. In some situations, you want RNG so the game isnt just "follow these exact instructions or lose", but too much RNG also makes your difficulty worse.

[Arbinire]

I have to seriously disagree with you Reelya.  Purchasing a game should absolutely not be the only hurdle one has in seeing it the whole way through.  Though this is largely genre-dependent, I think the onus should lie on the person purchasing the game doing their research over it landing on the developer to make it all inclusive.  That mindset has lead to the stagnation in gaming we're seeing, as no one wants to risk innovation.  I really hate what this mentality has done to MMO's because since the inception of MUDs, the genre was defined by difficult gameplay which required groups of people and socialization which now is no longer the case because of the "I pay my $15 a month too" mentality, and we can actively see exactly what that's done to the prime example that is World of Warcraft.  There is no longer the carrot on the stick to strive for.

I used to argue this with people, it'd be ridiculous going into a game like Mario and demanding MMORPG features, yet for some reason it's perfectly acceptable to go into a genre which was defined by it's hardcore and social nature and to demand that it become more singleplayer and console focused, and since that "casualization" has started, we've got a measurable decline in a game that topped at 12-13 million active subscribers that now has dropped so low that they wont even report the numbers now.  The casual mindset states that this is where the money was at, but the empirical data says otherwise.

[hector13]

Correlation is not causation...

[Arbinire]

Correlation is not causation...

Except that Nostalrius became as popular as it did before being shut down on the basis of difficulty and the vanilla experience

[hector13]

Correlation is not causation...

Except that Nostalrius became as popular as it did before being shut down on the basis of difficulty and the vanilla experience

I was under the impression it was only because of the vanilla experience. Blizzard released a statement revealing they weren't going to have any servers that had limited expansion content or anything like that, despite the fans, particularly the Nostalrius users, clamouring for it.

I think part of the reason WoW isn't as popular anymore is Blizzard stopped giving any shits about their fanbase.

[Arbinire]

Correlation is not causation...

Except that Nostalrius became as popular as it did before being shut down on the basis of difficulty and the vanilla experience

I was under the impression it was only because of the vanilla experience. Blizzard released a statement revealing they weren't going to have any servers that had limited expansion content or anything like that, despite the fans, particularly the Nostalrius users, clamouring for it.

I think part of the reason WoW isn't as popular anymore is Blizzard stopped giving any shits about their fanbase.

I do agree with that, they really don't seem too anymore honestly

[Shadowlord]

Correlation is not causation...

Except that Nostalrius became as popular as it did before being shut down on the basis of difficulty and the vanilla experience

This Nosalrius, it is an MMO which was shut down for being too difficult and... vanilla? #captainoblivious

[Arbinire]

Correlation is not causation...

Except that Nostalrius became as popular as it did before being shut down on the basis of difficulty and the vanilla experience

This Nosalrius, it is an MMO which was shut down for being too difficult and... vanilla? #captainoblivious

it was a World of Warcraft private server which featured pre-expansion, or "vanilla" content.

[Shadowlord]

That explains the shutting down, heh.

[itisnotlogical]

That mindset has lead to the stagnation in gaming we're seeing, as no one wants to risk innovation

what about undertale, an indie *bit retro RPG with shoot-em-up mechanics that breaks the fourth wall at every turn
what about stardew valley, a revival of the mostly dead Harvest Moon-like genre
what about miitomo, a game that is more of a social network than a game that features a reward system for interacting with your friends
what about any number of indie VR demos, including the ones that somehow make it big like Keep Talking And Nobody Explodes
what about the new genre of adventure games created by Telltale which have taken a dead genre that nobody thought was coming back, and brought it back in a big way

When you say "all of gaming is X" you're not just talking about what's on the shelf at Wal-Mart or on the front page of Steam

[Neonivek]

That mindset has lead to the stagnation in gaming we're seeing, as no one wants to risk innovation

what about undertale, an indie *bit retro RPG with shoot-em-up mechanics that breaks the fourth wall at every turn
what about stardew valley, a revival of the mostly dead Harvest Moon-like genre
what about miitomo, a game that is more of a social network than a game that features a reward system for interacting with your friends
what about any number of indie VR demos, including the ones that somehow make it big like Keep Talking And Nobody Explodes
what about the new genre of adventure games created by Telltale which have taken a dead genre that nobody thought was coming back, and brought it back in a big way

When you say "all of gaming is X" you're not just talking about what's on the shelf at Wal-Mart or on the front page of Steam

Even in the worst of times, exceptions exist.

During the death of the gaming industry, for example, PC gaming was largely unaffected.

The exception today seems to be largely kickstarters and indie games.

Also don't mention Telltale... They have abandoned their point and click origins completely now and are exclusively interactive fiction. Their least popular titles are their point and clicks while their most popular are interactive fiction games. For example "Wolf Among Us" is interactive fiction, not point and click.

So yeah point and clicks are still dead.