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[Neonivek]

And frankly playing enough Heroes of the Storm has kind of taught me how terrible the whole item game is. It is just another hoop a new player needs to jump through in order to have fun.

Having played DotA2 and LoL then Heroes of the Storm, I felt thant the item game was lacking because it let you specialize your hero in a way Heroes of the Storm doesn't really.
And yeah, even if there are not that many "viable" builds for each hero, you can say the same thing with the talents in Heroes of the Storm.

The whole item game in the metagame just, in the end, hovered between mind games. Without it, it means that playing the game well relies a lot more on you being able to play your character better.

Not mastering a thousand other little mechanics.

Heroes of the Storm gets straight down to the point of the game... the game.

Think of it this way... who doesn't League of Legends let you create presets for every character? Why doesn't it SUPPORT its own game mechanic?

Heck why not have a list of what the opponents have bought right there on the item selection?

If Items are such a great part of the game... then why don't the games support it?

and why do MOBAs block off absolutely vital aspects of gameplay?

Heroes of the Storm isn't perfect by any stretch... but I think it has made more strives to improve MOBAs then all Mobas combined and multiplied by 1000. While all Mobas want to be DOTA... Heroes of the Storm actually attempts to have an identity.

[Parsely]

^^This.

For me, the item thing was the objective reason why I never got into LoL (subjectively, I'm just not into competitive games). Look at this sprawling item menu:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have to view this, in real time, in a competitive game where you can't waste any time checking effects? At least the categories are intuitive for someone who's played tons of RPGs before. Except for Tenacity. What the hell is Tenacity?

For someone who's put hours and hours in, and read threads on builds for characters in advance, it hardly matters. But I'm sure someone might agree that this is terrible for beginners who play the tutorial, see the big fat item menus, realize they'd be at a disadvantage unless they troll a wiki and a forum for a few hours, and decide they really don't feel like doing that.

[UXLZ]

Any game with an extensive item/customisation system is like that as well, though. In Singleplayer games it doesn't really matter, but it's still there.

[itisnotlogical]

That's an unfair representation; the default tab is "Recommended", which actually gives you a pretty good jumping-off point in most regards, including decent choices for early-game items like potions and wards.

It's really not as difficult as it looks. In the early levels, pick something from each category on the "Recommended" tab and hope that your opponent is doing the same; later on when you're going against more experienced players, you're probably already invested enough in the game to either look at a wiki or come up with your own build order. It even shows you the prereq items with big colorful icons, so you can start working towards the more expensive items earlier in the game.

[Neonivek]

That's an unfair representation; the default tab is "Recommended", which actually gives you a pretty good jumping-off point in most regards, including decent choices for early-game items like potions and wards.

You will be laughed out of the room if you take their recommendations which are often DREADFUL!

All "pros" agree that the recommended builds are a total joke.

Actually can you even look at the inventory list... In the game... outside of an actual game or practice game?

Mind you League of Legends will always be on my dumb list for gating "Flash" the absolute most vital skill in the entire game... and you can't even access it until you played it extensively. One of the most vital spells you need to learn and the game doesn't let new players learn how to use it for a long time.

You know how long it takes for me to access all the vital skills of any new hero in Heroes of the Storm? 3 MAYBE 5 games tops... and later on you unlock all those skills permanently.

[UXLZ]

Actually can you even look at the inventory list... In the game... outside of an actual game or practice game?

Yes.

Mind you League of Legends will always be on my dumb list for gating "Flash" the absolute most vital skill in the entire game... and you can't even access it until you played it extensively. One of the most vital spells you need to learn and the game doesn't let new players learn how to use it for a long time.

"Extensively" is a bit of hyperbole. League's progression system is bullshit, yes, I agree, but the issue is with runes/champions and to a lesser extent masteries, not the time at which you unlock flash (which is only level 12, iirc. At least, it was like that 2-3 years ago for me.)

[quinnr]

While we are on the topic of MOBAs...I really love the gameplay of MOBAs, but I can't stand the people. Like...why are you even playing a game if you are going to be an absolute horrible person the second anyone makes a single mistake? (Or in some cases, right off the bat.) It's gotten to the point where I just mute everyone every match or only play with friends.

[Neonivek]

While we are on the topic of MOBAs...I really love the gameplay of MOBAs, but I can't stand the people. Like...why are you even playing a game if you are going to be an absolute horrible person the second anyone makes a single mistake? (Or in some cases, right off the bat.) It's gotten to the point where I just mute everyone every match or only play with friends.

Ohh yeah. It makes you want to quit playing the game as a new player pretty much immediately.

I already make a vow NEVER to use a guide for any game because it sucks the fun and joy out of it.

League of Legends is probably the worst for this.

[itisnotlogical]

Most of the people I've played with on League were nice enough. There were a few assholes, but no more than you see in any other online game.

But besides that, League definitely is the best with friends. You actually work together and have an interest in helping eachother then.

[Bohandas]

I don't like games where you have to make a lot of inventory management decisions. If I wanted to do that I'd clean my bedroom.

[EnigmaticHat]

While we are on the topic of MOBAs...I really love the gameplay of MOBAs, but I can't stand the people. Like...why are you even playing a game if you are going to be an absolute horrible person the second anyone makes a single mistake? (Or in some cases, right off the bat.) It's gotten to the point where I just mute everyone every match or only play with friends.

The best advice I've ever heard about learning MOBAs is, if you ever think anyone is being mean spirited (as opposed to constructive criticism) mute them instantly.  Nine times out of ten you'll learn nothing from the asshole on the team and you'll be much happier ignoring them.

While we're on this topic... smurfs in LoL.  Its one thing that many of the "beginner" players in LoL are just alt accounts for experienced players.  It is quite another that many of them feel superior about it.  Like... you're cheating the system so that you can play with people worse than you, and then you get angry when your teammates are playing at a low skill level.  WTF?  A lot of them will proudly reveal that they're a smurf and then start ordering everyone around.

[Bohandas]

I don't like games that feature "nuclear" devices with blast radiuses smaller than that of the average grenade (ie. Fallout: Lonesome Road, Ratchet and Clank 2: Going Commando, etc.). The only game I've seen that avoids this is Postal 2 where the tactical nuke launcher takes out about a third of an average sized map

[Neonivek]

I don't like games that feature "nuclear" devices with blast radiuses smaller than that of the average grenade (ie. Fallout: Lonesome Road, Ratchet and Clank 2: Going Commando, etc.). The only game I've seen that avoids this is Postal 2 where the tactical nuke launcher takes out about a third of an average sized map

Well there is Supreme Commander where nukes are... well... nukes.

[itisnotlogical]

I don't like games where you have to make a lot of inventory management decisions. If I wanted to do that I'd clean my bedroom.

This is why I get tired of RPGs sometimes. In Mass Effect, I hit the item limit just about every time I step outside the Normandy, and I'm still finding the odd upgrade here and there that I got at the very beginning of the game. You have to trash each item individually, too, which takes a loooooong time.

[Shadowlord]

Thankfully, they did away with the inventory and the millions of item variations in Mass Effect 2. (It was especially annoying in ME1 since there was one of each kind of thing which was clearly the best, making everything else trash)