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[Catastrophic lolcats]

Neverwinter Nights 2 (the original campaign) did have some interesting ideas. The trial, the fortress building and the Ammon Jerro twist were all done reasonably well. It did suffer from some painfully generic and annoying characters in particular that elf druid and human paladin that I can't even remember the name of. Bishop, Shandra and Neera were done alright and offered some nice sub-quests.

Unfortunately the main problem was the game just being a massive slog through generic locations. Whenever the game mentioned githyanki I toned out. Mask of the Betrayer was much better but I found I have to turn off the spirit metre mechanics with the debug menu to really enjoy it.

[Mech#4]

Neverwinter Nights 2 (the original campaign) did have some interesting ideas. The trial, the fortress building and the Ammon Jerro twist were all done reasonably well. It did suffer from some painfully generic and annoying characters in particular that elf druid and human paladin that I can't even remember the name of. Bishop, Shandra and Neera were done alright and offered some nice sub-quests.

Unfortunately the main problem was the game just being a massive slog through generic locations. Whenever the game mentioned githyanki I toned out. Mask of the Betrayer was much better but I found I have to turn off the spirit metre mechanics with the debug menu to really enjoy it.

Oh certainly, I like the trial mechanic and the Crossroad Keep what with all the hiring people and taxes stuff. Though from what I've read the game was rather unfinished (though it does hide it much better then KOTORII).

Here's a Let's Play I've read that goes into more what elements were left out, if you're interested. From what I understand, the player was looking at the game files to find unfinished dialogue and stuff that wasn't included in the end.
http://lparchive.org/Neverwinter-Nights-2/

The Githyanki were odd, they were mostly tuned out about halfway through,

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

except for your party member. Well... githzerai.

[Neonivek]

The Dark Brotherhood send folk out to kill you with just a note saying "<Player> must be killed!" or some such.

In their defense they are supposed to be supernaturally crafty and have spies everywhere, often invisible.

Plus they seem to have some form of clairvoyance.

[LeoLeonardoIII]

The Dark Brotherhood send folk out to kill you with just a note saying "<Player> must be killed!" or some such.

In their defense they are supposed to be supernaturally crafty and have spies everywhere, often invisible.

Plus they seem to have some form of clairvoyance.

So why can't they figure out their new chum is actually a target?

Plus, what kind of assassin needs a note giving such important and easy-to-remember details of his mission? This guy only needs to know one thing that the note tells him: Must Kill Jimmy. It's not possible for him to just keep that in mind?

Not if the note populated data with the location where you were attacked, and the last town you were in, etc. that would be cool.

For example,

"The target Jimmy is currently in Blagtown and is leaving for The Old North Road. Ambush him at the big tree!"

But the code is something like

"The target <playername> is currently in <last town you were in> and is leaving for <region you got ambushed in>. Ambush him at <geographical feature nearest where you got ambushed>."

Of course, make up a few dozen different note structures with different info types and randomly pick one when the ambush occurs.

Yeah this is a lot of work to do for a stupid assassin's note. But my alternative would just be to leave the note out. Why did these guys attack me? Well they sure do have assassin tattoos when I steal their armor. Hmm ...

[hops]

In-game journals that record everything in great detail like the writer already knows what's going to happen and so they decide to make their demise or their descend into madness as dramatic as possible.

I mean, the most egregious example is that skeleton at the bottom of the pit in the Twilight Sepulcher in Skyrim. I mean, if I was stuck there, I wouldn't just sit and write a journal. Not to mention WHO EVEN BRING A JOURNAL INTO A DANGEROUS MAGICAL TEMPLE ANYWAYS?

Even worse is that the guy who's in cahoots with the pit guy wrote in his journal DETAILING THEIR SECRET PLAN

If a priest of Nocturnal find it, things wouldn't be pretty.

At least those two died, ridding Skyrim of two retards.

The Dark Brotherhood send folk out to kill you with just a note saying "<Player> must be killed!" or some such.

In their defense they are supposed to be supernaturally crafty and have spies everywhere, often invisible.

Plus they seem to have some form of clairvoyance.

So why can't they figure out their new chum is actually a target?

They probably does. Joining the Dark Brotherhood probably probably will make them cancel the contract regardless of the reward.
I mean really the Dark Brotherhood assassins seem to have creepily strong bond.
It's like "Killing people is okay, but I'm not going to hurt a hair on my friend!"

[scrdest]

They probably does. Joining the Dark Brotherhood probably probably will make them cancel the contract regardless of the reward.
I mean really the Dark Brotherhood assassins seem to have creepily strong bond.
It's like "Killing people is okay, but I'm not going to hurt a hair on my friend!"

Well, for the old Brotherhood, it was 'kill a brother (unless authorized by higher-ups) and get murdered by vengeful ghost sent by Sithis', and for Skyrim Brotherhood, it's mostly Astrid trying to maintain the big-happy-murderous-family dynamic. Hell, if you think of it, Skyrim Brotherhood is almost a fantasy assasin equivalent of the Addams Family.

[Graknorke]

Eh? You mean ropes like the ones in Garry's Mod that are more like a stretchy connector then a piece of rope of a specific length?


Hm, I can't think of a game that had rope that acted realistically that had physics applied to it as well. Either the ropes a solid object or it's a stretchy piece of elastic/2D multiple part wiggly thing.

Spiderman 2.

[scrdest]

Skyrim presents itself as sandbox, but the way quests are handled is the exact opposite of sandbox. It's not even that your choice doesn't matter like in NWN, there just IS no choice in most of the quests. This bugs me to no end.

[hops]

Skyrim presents itself as sandbox, but the way quests are handled is the exact opposite of sandbox. It's not even that your choice doesn't matter like in NWN, there just IS no choice in most of the quests. This bugs me to no end.

Skyrim is an open-world RPG, not a sandbox.
There's a difference.

[scrdest]

Skyrim presents itself as sandbox, but the way quests are handled is the exact opposite of sandbox. It's not even that your choice doesn't matter like in NWN, there just IS no choice in most of the quests. This bugs me to no end.

Skyrim is an open-world RPG, not a sandbox.
There's a difference.

That makes it even worse. RPG means role-playing game. Skyrim railroads you into following the single possible course of action for the majority of quests.

[Niveras]

There are really two meanings to "RPG", mostly because of the JRPGs of the 80s and 90s which weren't really RPGs in the western sense. In those games, you "role play" in the sense that you're given strict roles to play (that is, you control the character, but you can only act and react in the ways that character is meant to act and react). Like a character in a play, they can only ever act or perform in one way (though these days there may be a little more variety in that regard).

In western RPGs (basically anything derived directly or from a similar spirit, as D&D), you not only design your character but design how that character acts and reacts. You're given more freedom to play the role you design, rather than the role that was designed for the player. There are still some limitations, obviously, just because devs can't think of everything (and even if they could it's not economical to include, for example, the summoning of a miniature giant space hamster in order to deal with a random locked manhole cover).

Games like Skyrim and Diablo, although they're billed as RPGs, I feel fall better under the label of "adventure" (more accurately action/adventure) game than RPG. Although you have leeway in how you design your character, the game itself follows a very strict path, much like a Metroid or Zelda or Megaman game: you have some leeway to decide how you play (what weapons you use, even though there is a "best" for most situations, whether you build your character), but the script is set. You play a role designed for you, not a role you design.

[scrdest]

Yeah, well, the only-character-look-design philosophy is bugging me pretty hard, since it makes your character the audience surrogate, with all the blandness and lack of any identifiable characteristics outside of your headcannon. I would go so far as to say that Saints Row has the player character design done much better than 'RPG' games like Skyrim.

[itisnotlogical]

What bugs me most is when a developer comes out and says "No no no, this is the way it actually happened". Kinda invalidates the whole point of allowing the player to pick and choose their responses.

When it comes to roleplaying, I find it works best when I have some sort of framework or base to go off of. I make up a character when I'm playing Knights of the Old Republic, but Nethack characters are just as cheap and expendable as the Doomguy.

[Xantalos]

What bugs me most is when a developer comes out and says "No no no, this is the way it actually happened". Kinda invalidates the whole point of allowing the player to pick and choose their responses.

When it comes to roleplaying, I find it works best when I have some sort of framework or base to go off of. I make up a character when I'm playing Knights of the Old Republic, but Nethack characters are just as cheap and expendable as the Doomguy.

You make a character for them as they go along. Then when they die fighting the Wizard of Yendor, you can really break your hand smashing the table in frustration.

[scrdest]

What bugs me most is when a developer comes out and says "No no no, this is the way it actually happened". Kinda invalidates the whole point of allowing the player to pick and choose their responses.

Oh, this pissed me off so much in DX:HR. What's even the point of choosing the ending if no matter what I do, in thirty years, this way or another, all of them will converge on the single point labeled 'world is fucked and it's up to you to become a nano-augmented, trenchcoat-clad Jesus'?