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[Neonivek]

Whether or not it is terrorism depends on what side of the coin you are.

As for why you would want to destroy a hospital in Xcom 2... well... there are pretty big and obvious reasons why.

But it doesn't have to be this morally grey gritfest.

I am not asking for it to be. You are clearly in the right in the game.

But the sheer loops it creates to make sure you are basically as far removed from anything that could be remotely distasteful is... poor.

There is a whole ocean between what the game does... And being "Morally Grey"... In fact the game is blindingly bright... for a post-invasion Orwellian culture.

Heck it hurts their plot SOO BADLY that they have to jump through hoops CONSTANTLY in their story to explain all the plotholes. Such as "If the aliens are so transparently evil... why can't anyone notice they are transparently evil?" (YES! they do indeed answer that. The aliens being so lousy at pretending to be good... Is a plot point in the expanded material.)

[Virtz]

A bigger problem I'm seeing with XCOM2's story is that it's a rebellion following a failed military defence that has no external backing. It has no right to succeed. Which brings me to my peeve.

Games where you play as a rebellion
You're worse equipped, worse trained, less numerous, and your compatriots are usually mind-numbingly stupid. Yet somehow this ragtag rebellion is successfully fighting off the big bad empire without any external help. Add to that that the rebels' plan is basically to kill everyone and wreck everything, with considerations of what comes after being a distant third (the second being mass executions of opposition and collaborators).

A prominent example of this would be Red Faction 3, which while fun in gameplay, is absolutely retarded in the story department, and just about the only things I could perceive as good were nods towards Red Faction 1.

Oh, speaking of that.
"GRR MORALLY GREY GRR"
I hate it when people praise morally gray stories and paths and games as the epitome of morality. Not everything has to be unclear and not everything has to be this stupid "CONSEQUENCES GRRRRR" thing. There are many strict rights and wrongs in this world and while many things are ambiguous morally, making everything that way in your game just makes it seem like it's trying to be edgy.

Thing is most video game settings do not take place in the modern Western world (and even that has flimsy moral values at times, mostly on account of people who believe ends justify the means). If anything I'd say games do not try to be morally ambiguous enough when appropriate. Putting Western moral values in, for example, a medieval setting, is a sign of horrible writing that really sticks out. We have a whole history of humanity where at times it was considered morally right to do all sorts of harm to anyone outside your tribe, culture, religion or country, so I do not think there are that many "strict rights and wrongs" in the world.

[Neonivek]

The game where rebel groups was handled THE best... period...

Was Suikeoden 2.

Where the enemies actually treat you like a legitimate threat from the getgo and you aren't stomped into the ground because you pull off a miracle comeback.

Yet even in that game a HUGE part of the story just about gaining allies and nations to fight with you. Starting as a bunch of rebels from a destroyed kingdom and turning into a kingdom in your own rights.

Yet your enemy never treats you as an incompetent and sends fodder after you (except... maybe as a trick or trap)

---

One of the worst? Tactics Ogre Let us Cling Together

At a certain point of ONE of the paths it is clear you are no where close to full strength and you no longer have an army... you are just a rag tag group of misfits.

But somewhere between that and when you start taking forts... You just... have an entire army... This army that appears out of thin air (and no, there is not even a implication for where your troops are coming from... It is actually a REAL plothole... and not just a continuity or story flub)

---

Though I won't lie Red Faction is particularly bad... with the enemy finding out what you are up to... and just kind of being miffed at you and not really having all that many resources themselves.

[Krevsin]

I personally blame Red Dawn, the epitome of just how poorly american cinema (i.e. the culturally dominant medium in the west and most of the world) understands what it means to be a resistance. It's all killing THOSE DAMNED RUSSIAN INVADERS with your SMALL RAGTAG GROUP OF TRUE PATRIOT AMERICANS rather than being mostly on the run, striking terror into your enemies and sucking up the return terror they'll inflict upon the populace. Guerilla warfare is an ugly thing.

[Niveras]

And this is ignoring the games where evil... is just being a psycho maniac. Making it sort of a non-option.

I guess Prototype counts as this option? Civilians are pretty much inconsequential in all ways, you're not incentivized to kill them but neither are you incentivized to save them. Blackwatch is pretty evil but more Lawful Evil shadow government sense than a typical villain - you fight them out of petty revenge rather than being morally opposed to them or their goals. At least in Prototype 1.

Prototype 2 has almost the same gameplay (so same video game cruelty potential) but a more typical cursed-but-moral hero vs amoral/evil villain: Mercer wants to Kill All Humans and you're going to stop that, the protective instinct for humanity grown from a protective instinct for your daughter.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

I personally blame Red Dawn, the epitome of just how poorly american cinema (i.e. the culturally dominant medium in the west and most of the world) understands what it means to be a resistance. It's all killing THOSE DAMNED RUSSIAN INVADERS with your SMALL RAGTAG GROUP OF TRUE PATRIOT AMERICANS rather than being mostly on the run, striking terror into your enemies and sucking up the return terror they'll inflict upon the populace. Guerilla warfare is an ugly thing.

Likely has roots in how the American Revolution is popularly portrayed, and people not realizing both the impact France had upon the conflict as well as not appreciating how being over an ocean away from the United Kingdom affected it.  That latter is occasionally translated as 'edge of empire,' but even that is far, far closer than across an ocean.

[Chiefwaffles]

Snip

Thing is most video game settings do not take place in the modern Western world (and even that has flimsy moral values at times, mostly on account of people who believe ends justify the means). If anything I'd say games do not try to be morally ambiguous enough when appropriate. Putting Western moral values in, for example, a medieval setting, is a sign of horrible writing that really sticks out. We have a whole history of humanity where at times it was considered morally right to do all sorts of harm to anyone outside your tribe, culture, religion or country, so I do not think there are that many "strict rights and wrongs" in the world.

Yet the games I'm talking about still apply western morality intentionally. Except it's for the aforementioned SUPER MORALLY AMBIGUOUS PLOTS GRRR.

[Rolan7]

Sorta unrelated, played some XCOM 1 again.  Wow, I forgot how buggy this was.  In the very first mission one of my soldiers kept "spotting" a dead alien as alive, though she couldn't engage.  This didn't clear at end of turn, either.
Then the typical BS accidental pull which is more a failure of the UI to communicate LoS, literally the most important mechanic in the game.  They barely even try.
Meld canisters are still clearly visible long before you soldiers can "see" them, what is UP with that?
And just now, I had a soldier run up to the crashed UFO door, which pulled the Outsider...  Except she couldn't see the Outsider until the next turn when she opened the door.  Not only is LoS not communicated, it's not fricken consistent!

On the plus side, missions are loading in literally 1-3 seconds from non-SSD instead of 30+ from SSD, so I can't bear to install XCOM 2 (40 GIGS) again.

Yeah... Why would Xcom operatives ever want to sabotage factories, hospitals, media centers, communication relays, attack major political figures, or anything of the sort... There are absolutely 0 story reasons why Xcom would ever want to deal with those *sarcasm*

My point is that "terrorism" is an idiotic term for this. If you want what you just said in your latest post, that really wouldn't be called terrorism. That'd be like calling all military strike by countries strictly acts of terrorism.
XCOM, like I admitted, is lacking in the area of good/bad. But it doesn't have to be this morally grey gritfest.

Oh, speaking of that.
"GRR MORALLY GREY GRR"
I hate it when people praise morally gray stories and paths and games as the epitome of morality. Not everything has to be unclear and not everything has to be this stupid "CONSEQUENCES GRRRRR" thing. There are many strict rights and wrongs in this world and while many things are ambiguous morally, making everything that way in your game just makes it seem like it's trying to be edgy.

When games involve killing scores of people casually, I tend to make up reasons that they're okay ("Mechwarriors always eject", for example, or "I'm using rubber bullets").  The game isn't bothering to be make sense, so I might as well improve it via headcanon. 
Whereas when a game depicts death as monstrous, or explains why your character no longer cares, that's cool.  It can be really fun to play as a messed up person.

S'also why I like zombie games so much...  All the fun of using weapons, none of the cheapening of human life.  WW2 games, on the other hand, gross me out.

[Zanzetkuken The Great]

S'also why I like zombie games so much...  All the fun of using weapons, none of the cheapening of human life.  WW2 games, on the other hand, gross me out.

You know, I'd like to see someone make a World War 2 game with the perspective of an Axis soldier with the horrors of the war being the main focus.  Maybe use an Italian soldier on the front in Italy to both shed some light on one that a lot of people tend to forget about, and to reduce the chances of people construing it as glorifying the Nazis.

Though if that's too far, maybe a game where you play in the final months of the war on the side that's being pushed back, and the game ends with the side you were fighting for losing the war.

[Chiefwaffles]

Oh no, my morally grey thing isn't talking about that specifically. I'm fine with stuff like that where the game highlights one of those "War is awful"-type themes o anything like that.

My problem is beyond that. It's when in a game ou make lots of choices and every single choice is some variation of "Save X sacrifice Y or save Y sacrifice D". Some games do this better than others but even when it's done amazingly well (I want to say the Witcher but I really haven't played enough to confidently say so) I'm still annoyed by it.

[Neonivek]

Ohh there is definitely morality in play in King of Dragon Pass.

In that if you are a bastardo... Things will not work well for you. (In fact a few of the bad endings involve just being a dick to someone seemingly inconsequential)

[Rolan7]

Heyo Norse morality plays

[AzyWng]

Sorta unrelated, played some XCOM 1 again.  Wow, I forgot how buggy this was.  In the very first mission one of my soldiers kept "spotting" a dead alien as alive, though she couldn't engage.  This didn't clear at end of turn, either.
Then the typical BS accidental pull which is more a failure of the UI to communicate LoS, literally the most important mechanic in the game.  They barely even try.
Meld canisters are still clearly visible long before you soldiers can "see" them, what is UP with that?
And just now, I had a soldier run up to the crashed UFO door, which pulled the Outsider...  Except she couldn't see the Outsider until the next turn when she opened the door.  Not only is LoS not communicated, it's not fricken consistent!

Not sure how much help this is as far as displaying LoS, but there are patches and fixes to XCOM 1 you can make. The one I'd recommend is OpenXCOM.

EDIT: Wait, do you mean the very first XCOM, or do you mean the reboot? Because I don't know how to fix any of the reboot's bugs.

When games involve killing scores of people casually, I tend to make up reasons that they're okay ("Mechwarriors always eject", for example, or "I'm using rubber bullets").

I just keep joking to myself: "Congratulations, y'all, you're all murderers now."

That's something I've started doing since I've been playing Fire Emblem: Heroes, especially when young/cute characters like Nino level up and act like they didn't just end 7-8 lives to boost their own stats. Great job, killer.

EDIT: I suppose this is part of the reason I like characters like Saizo and Beruka: Those two actually get it. Cynical/edgy as they are, they actually understand.

Also, the Training Tower and Arena are never given an in-story justification, which kinda bugs me. I understand its reason for existing because it's a game, but it's never explained as to how the tower works, why there are so many faceless goons in the tower, how these faceless goons have access to special skills and even special attacks, why sometimes the faceless goons are replaced with actual Heroes...

Don't even get me started on the idea of having duplicate Heroes and fusing them, let alone how you can get duplicates in the first place. That just introduces plot holes big enough to drive cars through.

[Neonivek]

And then there is Advance War

Where the fact that you are leading hundreds or thousands of people to their death and yet it never gets addressed and you are all happy go lucky anime people... Is actually part of the joke.

[Rolan7]

Sorta unrelated, played some XCOM 1 again.  Wow, I forgot how buggy this was.  In the very first mission one of my soldiers kept "spotting" a dead alien as alive, though she couldn't engage.  This didn't clear at end of turn, either.
Then the typical BS accidental pull which is more a failure of the UI to communicate LoS, literally the most important mechanic in the game.  They barely even try.
Meld canisters are still clearly visible long before you soldiers can "see" them, what is UP with that?
And just now, I had a soldier run up to the crashed UFO door, which pulled the Outsider...  Except she couldn't see the Outsider until the next turn when she opened the door.  Not only is LoS not communicated, it's not fricken consistent!

Not sure how much help this is as far as displaying LoS, but there are patches and fixes to XCOM 1 you can make. The one I'd recommend is OpenXCOM.

Nice
X-COM was also pretty frustrating about LoS, particularly since aliens had more vision than your guys, but it was mitigated by the universal squadsight and availability of terrain-destruction (without dedicating 1/6 of your team's turn to fire their one rocket, no movement).  And once you realized it was raytracing from a certain points on the models, it was a little easier to understand.

I'm sure there are OpenXCOM packages that do it well, I really should try that.  UFO:Extraterrestrials did it really well once BMan's mod was patched into the core game, but I mention that too often probably.  (By mousing over a square, you could simply see which enemies would be targettable).  And UFO:AfterX did it well too but that's more an X-COM 3 style series.