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[hector13]

Christ almighty stop talking about Mass Effect. I've not even started the third one yet

[Neonivek]

I don't get the jRPG character praise. Like... they're still blatant anime characters. They're still pretty banal and usually stupid. And they still use anime-talk, which no sentient being uses. How do you relate to these anime people with their anime problems?

"Yeah! I just muredered a hundred people! Go me!... But what's really on my mind is telling Satsuke my true feelings... ... ..."

They're basically Bioware characters, except they're being forgiven some really horrendous idiocy seemingly only because they're anime.

And like, do you really want a linear RPG just so that the developers can shove the characters they wrote in your face? There's adventure games for that, and those don't get their consistency ruined by having the characters murder people by the dozens and then act all cheerful.

Shin Megami Tensei: Devil Survivor 1 and 2 take their bow.

Almost all JRPGs take their bow.

I don't even know what game he is referring to here.

[UXLZ]

It seems like he's attached JRPG to some type of game that is always bad and we're on totally different pages here.

[Neonivek]

Maybe he thinks Lollypop Chainsaw is a JRPG?

[alexandertnt]

I don't get the jRPG character praise. Like... they're still blatant anime characters. They're still pretty banal and usually stupid. And they still use anime-talk, which no sentient being uses.

I'm not a particularly big fan of anime, but I seriously don't see the problem. "Being Anime" is not inherently bad. Sometimes they can be banal and stupid when you analyse them in comparison to real life. If you analyse western characters in video games, you will find them pretty stupid most of the time too. Neonivek has already done an excellent job on tearing some of these characters apart.

They are characters, most characters are designed to be relatable, not realistic. There is a difference.

"Anime" does not mean "Japanese". JRPG's are not inherently anime.

"Yeah! I just muredered a hundred people! Go me!... But what's really on my mind is telling Satsuke my true feelings... ... ..."

Today, some people were murdered and their families are mourning. Are you shedding a tear? No?

The reason we don't care about the hundreds of people is they are faceless and we know nothing about them, just like those very real people who died today. But, we do know quite a lot about Satsuke (I assume you just made the character up), and as such we actually care about that character and their feelings.

This is an even more ridiculous complaint when you realise that basically all western RPG's gameplay consist largely of mass-murder (right down to working out which skill point will help you murder more effectively). They make these characters faceless by making them "bandits" or "cultists" or something like that, so you don't care about killing them. Yet, you will still go back to McQuestGiver to get your silver necklace (with +1 to dodge!) and not even think twice. You killed 30 bandits because they stole a silver necklace. Somehow I don't think your thinking "I'm such a horrible dick! Those poor children I just orphaned...".

It's even more significant in western RPG's when you remember that they focus more on actions and settings.

(I was almost tempted to respond with something like "The reason this doesn't happen in western RPG's is that the characters have virtually no feelings to tell", but I can think of at least a few counter-examples)

And like, do you really want a linear RPG just so that the developers can shove the characters they wrote in your face? There's adventure games for that, and those don't get their consistency ruined by having the characters murder people by the dozens and then act all cheerful.

What's wrong with linear things? Why is linear inherently bad? How is bad gameplay supposed to make the characters bad (since your issue was with JRPG character praise)?

(Keep in mind that above is basically using a Generic Stawman Western RPG, there are no doubt counter examples, but it was designed to highlight overall ideas common in the genre)



Seriously, I'm starting to think there is some sort of cultural taboo against expressing strong emotions, or something. When someone has an emotional break down, they don't just mumble about how bad their day was, they break down completely.

[Neonivek]

Well in most Western RPGs even ones where characters have a lot of emotion. They tend to have very dry, stale, reserved emotions for the vast majority of the plot... and this... is pretty much the "accepted mode" for all western RPGs.

[UXLZ]

You mean ME3's "Traumatized by single child's unseen death despite slaughtering hundred.' Shepard?

[Neonivek]

You mean ME3's "Traumatized by single child's unseen death despite slaughtering hundred.' Shepard?

Yeah that sure played its part and was a constant struggle.

Ohh wait he responded to it like it was just a fly on his windshield most of the time and the "Trauma" was displayed through hallucinations.

And the other characters... I mean end of the world. I am sure they were quite frantic, like, all the time... ohh wait...

I like mass effect but definitely not for that.

[Majestic7]

I kind of wish they had "don't show me games with this tag, plz"-option in Steam. The thing is, anime-like graphics turn me off. I just don't like the style. I won't hate it. I won't preach to you about it and I think it is great if you like such games! It just isn't my thing. I've even tried liking it, I tried liking Valkyrie Chronicles, but eh, I just couldn't. We all have our limitations.

Regarding story-based pet peeves, I'm tired of saving the world. I'd prefer selfish motivation for the player for a change. Something that gets him heavily invested without railroading blatantly. I think Planescape: Torment is a pretty good example on how you can do personal motivation in an epic and bombastic setting without having to save the world.

In general, lazy writing makes me angry. For example, the vanilla ending of Fallout 3, where the super mutant, the ghoul and the robot all refuse to go the irradiated chamber for you. I mean, what the fuck? That's like being in a P&P RPG run by a ten year old.

[notquitethere]

They make these characters faceless by making them "bandits" or "cultists" or something like that, so you don't care about killing them.

This here is my pet peeve. I'm the kind of person who felt bad killing all those storm troopers in Dark Forces.

Thinking about it, I recall that in Morrowind, quite often the bandits would be given actual names.

[itisnotlogical]

Regarding story-based pet peeves, I'm tired of saving the world. I'd prefer selfish motivationFor The player for a change. Something that gets him heavily invested without railroading blatantly. I think Planescape: Torment is a pretty good example of an epic and bombastic setting without having to save the world.

In general, lazy writing makes me angry. For example, the vanilla ending of Fallout 3, where the super mutant, the ghoul and the robot all refuse to go the irradiated chamber for you. I mean, what the fuck? That's like being in a P&P RPG run by a ten year old.

Have you tried adventure games, especially more comedic ones? Those often see you stumble into the conflict by accident, if you even end up doing anything important anyway. Prime example is Leisure Suit Larry, where the win condition is "get laid" and anything else is just set dressing. Not that point-and-clicks have aged very well in my opinion, but they seem to have what you're looking for more than most genres.

What really irritates me about games in any capacity is the "us vs. them" mindset many gamers get into. Like casual vs. hardcore games. Why does it matter that World of Warcraft is a shallow, easy game? I like to zone out, look at some pretty pictures and watch numbers go up, and I'm happy to pay for the service because it's well-put-together, has plenty of players and is associated with the Warcraft universe. Same for mobile games; especially ones like Angry Birds, Flappy Bird, Bejewelled clones and so on. They're shallow, they might even be a bit dumb, but why does it matter? It doesn't mean that they're bad, it just means that you dislike it and somebody else likes it. It's like... I dunno, saying that red is awful and terrible because blue is an option, and everybody should just use blue and completely abolish red forever. See how silly that sounds? They fill different niches, saying that one is "better" than the other based on style (i.e., Bejewelled clone vs a full-length adventure) is a fallacious illogical statement.

[Majestic7]

I presume that when people are emotionally invested in something, they start mixing their own enjoyment of something as an universal truth. A bit like parents falsely believe anyone gives a shit about their children. Thus people who are REALLY into something feel the need to inject GAME X IS BETTER or GENRE Z IS BETTER in all gaming-related conversations.

Meh, I mean, I don't like anime, I don't play shooters, I don't swat myself on the face with a cattle prod for enjoyment. That doesn't mean other people shouldn't do those things. Whatever man! Do what you like! Just not in my bedroom, okay? That smell of scorched flesh gives me flashbacks--

HELICOPTERS! HELICOPTERS!

[Neonivek]

Like casual vs. hardcore games.

Because gamers had it too good for so long as videogames went from being a mostly cultish activity and thus games had to appeal to gamers who were mostly looking for depth and challenge... to being for a general audience that mostly includes people who don't play videogames and thus they are looking for brainless easy games.

So you have casual gamers who are being hated on because they aren't "as good as hardcore gamers"

And Hardcore gamers who are being hated on because they are "snobs"

Basically lets just say that for now on videogames are going to try to appeal to lower and lower common denominators... filled with tricks that ape depth but without any real substance.

It is no reason for anyone to really fight... but if you didn't understand why the rivalry is there, that is basically it.

[hector13]

I think one of the big things about games becoming more casual is that it's a lot harder to find that game that's going to challenge you as a hardcore gamer.

I would class myself as somewhere between a casual and hardcore gamer. I like games to be difficult, challenging, but I don't want it to be a slog from start to finish, else I end up throwing my controller about (though I am less inclined to do that now that controllers cost as much as games)

I agree hardcore gamers can be a bit elitist, but the casual gaming market being big money does make it difficult to find a gem of a game. Developers don't seem to be interested in trying new things, just selling the same old shit a year later with bells on.

Nintendo actually seem to do this quite well, bizarrely. I think the Donkey Kong Returns game was quite easy to do what was asked in a level, but if you wanted to get all the extra stuff too? Good luck, that shit was hard.

[Virtz]

Also what game did that happen in Virtz, I'd love to know.

From memory, Advance Wars, Valkyria Chronicles 2. Like I know they're not pure jRPGs, but they're the ones where it really bothered me the most.

Like I'm sorry, but you cannot be whimsical and a mass murderer unless you're some kind of unrelatable asshole. Killing people takes its toll on a person's mind. With western RPGs at least I'm not looking at cheerful lolis doing the murder, it's almost like I'm looking at someone who understands they're taking peoples' lives. Almost.

Today, some people were murdered and their families are mourning. Are you shedding a tear? No?

The reason we don't care about the hundreds of people is they are faceless and we know nothing about them, just like those very real people who died today. But, we do know quite a lot about Satsuke (I assume you just made the character up), and as such we actually care about that character and their feelings.

I didn't murder those people, tho. It doesn't reflect on me, cause I had nothing to do with it, nor was it on me to prevent it. I'd expect it to reflect on whomever it affected.

This is an even more ridiculous complaint when you realise that basically all western RPG's gameplay consist largely of mass-murder (right down to working out which skill point will help you murder more effectively). They make these characters faceless by making them "bandits" or "cultists" or something like that, so you don't care about killing them. Yet, you will still go back to McQuestGiver to get your silver necklace (with +1 to dodge!) and not even think twice. You killed 30 bandits because they stole a silver necklace. Somehow I don't think your thinking "I'm such a horrible dick! Those poor children I just orphaned...".

In jRPGs you often kill soldiers. Basically people doing their job as ordered by their country, often under threat of execution or other punishment. People who aren't necessarily doing it out of malice, greed or similar, just out of fear or obligation. If killing them doesn't reflect on the character and they remain an overly-cheerful moron, then I'm sorry, but they're a horrible person (which is fine if the writing actually acknowledges it somehow).

It's even more significant in western RPG's when you remember that they focus more on actions and settings.

It's actually the opposite, I believe. If you focus on the characters, then they'd better be redeemable and act like people.

And like, do you really want a linear RPG just so that the developers can shove the characters they wrote in your face? There's adventure games for that, and those don't get their consistency ruined by having the characters murder people by the dozens and then act all cheerful.

What's wrong with linear things? Why is linear inherently bad? How is bad gameplay supposed to make the characters bad (since your issue was with JRPG character praise)?

Not what I said. I find linearity bad for gameplay, but good for traditional story-telling (at least in theory). If you want linearity, then I expect you want it for a good story (that doesn't deal well with divergence). RPGs generally are not that great for your story. The combat heavy gameplay leading to mass murder tends to break tone with anything other than total grimdark or absurdity.

There's genres I'd say are more suited towards linear story-telling with less serious but not absurd overtones. Like you don't have to kill anyone in an adventure game, for instance. You can put any kind of tone in there without immediately ruining it.