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[penguinofhonor]

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[Darkmere]

The whole point to most magic is that there *are* laws and reasons why things work, but there's no point in explaining every single quirk of the system because stories aren't tech manuals. Ask yourself if you would really, truly be interested in a character-driven story that stopped every other chapter to write a pages-long explanation of how finger wiggling works.

It would be like saying "Alice microwaves her coffee" and then breaking down every step of the process, including atomic models, conductivity of the wires, the emitter guns in the microwave, and how the light bulb works. All that was important is her coffee is now hot.

Magic is a means to an end (the end being the story), not some kind of technical manual. There's plenty that goes on in real life that we don't understand at all, but is still considered "science" despite that.

[NullForceOmega]

It seems to me that some people here should read the Begariad and the Mallorean series by David Eddings, and Belgarath the Sorceror and Polgara the Sorceress for good measure.  By far my favorite fantasy series and author for the very reason that magic is clearly and concisely explained, without detracting from the story or characters.

So I suppose I owe the thread a peeve: Level restrictions on gear, not so much in MMOs, but in a single player game this is simply idiotic, and serves no purpose other than to make the game harder by placing a constraint on your ability to actually use things you find.  I'm fine with class locked items, I'm okay with stat locked items, but level locked is purely arbitrary and doesn't help the gameplay at all.

[Shadowlord]

The whole point to most magic is that there *are* laws and reasons why things work, but there's no point in explaining every single quirk of the system because stories aren't tech manuals. Ask yourself if you would really, truly be interested in a character-driven story that stopped every other chapter to write a pages-long explanation of how finger wiggling works.

It would be like saying "Alice microwaves her coffee" and then breaking down every step of the process, including atomic models, conductivity of the wires, the emitter guns in the microwave, and how the light bulb works. All that was important is her coffee is now hot.

Magic is a means to an end (the end being the story), not some kind of technical manual. There's plenty that goes on in real life that we don't understand at all, but is still considered "science" despite that.

Someone has to understand how microwaves work, and it's helpful if the general public has some understanding of the process, otherwise they're vulnerable to scaremongers telling them it's going to irradiate their food, destroy the natural life energy in it, cause cancer through the (completely impermeable to microwave rays because wavelengths) screen, and shit like that.

The same goes for magic. If you don't have some understanding of it or science, whenever anything you don't understand (or anything unlikely) happens, you might have the expectation that it's a witch's fault and you can solve the problem by burning them at the stake (when in actuality nothing out of the ordinary has happened at all).

[Fniff]

Well, most wizards are in medieval times, so witch-burning completely makes sense for the era. I'm surprised more wizards don't get burned at the stake, really. I mean, even your garden variety ones, not just necromancers.
More seriously, I could see wizards keeping information from the general public on the specifics of magic. It would bite them on the ass depending on the circumstance, but the stereotype is that wizards are proud, right? So why tell the riffraff how to do magic if they'll only use it for useless stuff like cooking and cleaning and curing terrible diseases and worldwide hunger?

[itisnotlogical]

For an example from non-game fiction: I much preferred when the Force was just nebulous life-energy flowing throughout the entire universe, as opposed to something that you can do a flippin' blood test for. It was a lot more mystical, interesting, and plain cool before The Phantom Menace provided an "explanation". As some Star Wars games have shown (notably KOTOR2, and to a certain extent the Jedi Knight series), the previous system lends itself to much more interesting storytelling than "either you have medichlorians or you don't, end of story".

[Neonivek]

I can't really see wizards as the intelligent type. In a land with catapults, medicines, crossbows, drawbridges, and other clever things invented by genuinely intelligent people, why do you need what is effectively a crude mimicry of an intelligence? There are evidently plenty of actually-smart people around. I mean, legends has it that Archimedes set ships on fire with the power of the sun, not by chanting some made-up smart-person words, or by taking a smart-person book from a smart-person library and reading it smartly, by using mirrors and focusing light. Now that would be true intelligence.

I could, in some situations, consider it almost insulting. The implication being that if it's something intelligent, you can't understand it, so if we have some bearded person do something you can't understand, then they must be intelligent.

Ugh, I suppose I'm just not a fan of the whole concept of magic. It cannot by definition be understood, therefore it's just not that interesting to me

That is an extremely modernistic viewpoint that goes back to the same old hacked "Technology versus magic". Especially in light that Wizards are usually "scientists".

It usually requires a lot of intelligence because Wizards actually need to memorize huge volumes of tombs, understand the physical laws of the universe, and then connect these laws in a way to create "magical" effects.

In fact here we go

Technology Versus Magic

DEAR HOLY GOODNESS! Why ohh why do we keep going back to this theme especially when neither of these things contradicted eachother at any other point of time EXCEPT when the 2000s rolled around.

I still remember the description of the Dark Legions Wizard where they actually were quite inventive and used science to enhance their magic (magic itself being an invention).

But most of all the reason why this bugs me the most is... Why would science be against magic? Sure lets say magic is an unknown... Science would want to know what it is. Why the world is science going so insane and becoming irrational? Science you STARTED OFF as "magic" you had to because it is impossible to start as science unless you are derived from another science.

And why would MAGIC be against science? Magic is ultimately just someone trying to grasp the unknowable vasts of the universe to try to gleam some use or truth from it. It is unknowable because the universe is unknowable and that often they are drawing upon laws much higher then physical ones. Science is just magic that everyone knows. Science is the box that has already been opened. Magic is attempting to open that box.

Princess Bubblegum wasn't against "Magic" because it is unscientific but because wizards were irresponsible and were carefully guarding their secrets to keep people in a state of ignorance... as well as her own people choosing magic over her medicines which she knows will work. Yet she wasn't the good guy in that story.

It is just flat out bad story telling and irrational short hand... for...

RELIGION VERSUS RATIONAL THOUGHT...

That is the plotline they actually want to do... Why don't you just do it? SMT isn't afraid to have their protagonists kill the Abrahamic god.

[Graknorke]

Because magicians are dicks and want to sell their snake oil to people more effectively by cutting off the scientific discoveries that people can understand.

[Jopax]

Arcanum did it nicely imho.

Tech and Magic were at odds because they went about manipulating the laws of the universe in different ways. Tech was using the rules to create and work while magic was bending those rules. So you had one interferring with the other in various negative ways. Plus IIRC there was some class distinction or something with tech being more accessible than magic (tho I'm probably making this part up since it's been far too long since I played it).

[Shadowlord]

Gandalf does not resemble any of these, of course. But "He's a wizard because he's basically the equivalent of an angel in the LotR universe, and no, you can't be one" isn't egalitarian enough for today.

[Fniff]

I would really enjoy if in a game there was some Gandalf expy acting like a hipster saying how wizardry was cool until everyone wanted to be one after seeing the movies, and now everyone's a crappy wizard.

[Virtz]

For an example from non-game fiction: I much preferred when the Force was just nebulous life-energy flowing throughout the entire universe, as opposed to something that you can do a flippin' blood test for. It was a lot more mystical, interesting, and plain cool before The Phantom Menace provided an "explanation". As some Star Wars games have shown (notably KOTOR2, and to a certain extent the Jedi Knight series), the previous system lends itself to much more interesting storytelling than "either you have medichlorians or you don't, end of story".

Wasn't that a symptom of being force-sensitive rather than the cause, tho? Like you got these parasites that leeched off your force? I seem to recall it being clarified as such. It's still kinda dumb, but mildly better.

But what's really dumb is when you take Yoda's "size matters not" literally. Then you get Force Unleashed. Like at that point, why not go further? Like just shove the new Death Star into a real star?


Either way, like with any character abilities, it helps to have the setting establish some limitations for magic users. Magic basically used as a plot device that introduces twists and powers out of ass alienates the viewer and negates any sense of tension. Like if a character can just suddenly say "this isn't even my final form", then who cares anymore? You can't gauge or predict any of this crap, so why even anticipate anything?

[Neonivek]

Arcanum did it nicely imho.

Quite a few things did it well.

It just needs more work then "They are inherent opposites" or trying to allude to religion through magic in a haphazard way so it doesn't insult anyone.

I guess what I mean is... my big pet peeve is

Short Hand plotting and characterization in Story Centric Games

WHOA!!! The villain is a Liberal that MUST mean he is good!

Woosh that is all the justification and allusions we need.

[Shadowlord]

But what's really dumb is when you take Yoda's "size matters not" literally. Then you get Force Unleashed. Like at that point, why not go further? Like just shove the new Death Star into a real star?

Because the Emperor was on said Death Star, so even if it were possible, he'd be able to counter it?

[Virtz]

But what's really dumb is when you take Yoda's "size matters not" literally. Then you get Force Unleashed. Like at that point, why not go further? Like just shove the new Death Star into a real star?

Because the Emperor was on said Death Star, so even if it were possible, he'd be able to counter it?

Ok. But then why would the Emperor need any Death Star? Just shove Alderaan into a star. Then Hoth. Then whatever else. I think that'd work as a demonstration of power pretty well.

If you put no limitations on this stuff, then it just begins to read like a pre-teen's day dreams. The only thing keeping them from abusing the lack of limitations is their lack of imagination.