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[Domitian]

Heya guys,

I decided to pick up DF again after stopping last year due to the hauling changes. I foudn the game to be too inefficient to be fun now that dwarves were hauling barrels to the pond to pick up a single fish, followed by going back for the wheelbarrow, and then returning ... rather than just picking up the damn fish and bringing it back like they used to. Between than and the job cancellation spam, i just found the game to be more about finding work-arounds to these problems than having fun.

My question is, has Toady mentioned anythign about fixing hauling for the next release? I'd really love to play this again, but i just cant do another layer of micromanagement in order to work around the bugs. I hate to think that these issues are being overlooked in favor of more features, as they make the game unplayable for me (having one dwarf love 50% of efficiency when you only have 7 dwarves is killer).

If not, does anyone know a mod that fixes these hauling issues?

Thanks guys!
-D

[11sparky11]

Why would he fix something that ain't broken. It's just different, maybe the job cancellation spam is annoying but hauling isn't 'broken'. It would still be nice if they did just take the item to the bin/barrel though.

[kingubu]

I hate the hauling changes as well.  I've started using barrel/bin free forts with minecart quantum stockpiles.  Kinda like dealing with one bug by using another.
Check out http://dwarffortresswiki.org/index.php/Exploit#Quantum_stockpiles

[MasterShizzle]

It forces you to be a little more creative with your stockpiles, but I don't think the changes are all that bad. Fish, for example:

• Forbid unprepared fish in your main food stockpile.
• Create a stockpile next to your fishery that only accepts raw fish, no bins or barrels.

Your fisherdwarves will haul raw fish to the fishery, then whoever prepares the fish will have little to no walking distance for their task. You'll end up with three, four, five prepared fish in your fishery, then a dwarf grabs a barrel from the food stocks and hauls all of them to the main food pile at once. Easy.

Honestly, I think the hauling changes allow for a lot more flexibility in managing your fort's resources. I do the same kind of setup with plants as well; the pig tails and rope reeds get hauled next to the farmer's workshop for processing into thread, then plump helmets/strawberries/etc. get hauled to a different intermediate pile where dwarves come and pick up 10 or 12 at a time into barrels. It's trickier to set up, but once it works it works with no micromanagement at all, except for queuing up "Process Plants" jobs every once in a while.

[Domitian]

I guess i jsut liked the relative simplicity of the hauling system before. The game now feels more about micromanagement of hauling. I dont want ot have to manage every individual item type in the process where before i could just set 10-15 main stockpiles, now it seems i need small stockpiles for every individual item.

Oh and i'll ignore the troll first comment.

As to my original question; has there been any mention of continued development of this system or does it appear that we're stuck with what we have for the forseeable future?

Thanks!

[11sparky11]

I guess i jsut liked the relative simplicity of the hauling system before. The game now feels more about micromanagement of hauling. I dont want ot have to manage every individual item type in the process where before i could just set 10-15 main stockpiles, now it seems i need small stockpiles for every individual item.

Oh and i'll ignore the troll first comment.

As to my original question; has there been any mention of continued development of this system or does it appear that we're stuck with what we have for the forseeable future?

Thanks!

Wow really? I was just ticked off that you were saying that hauling was 'bugged' and 'broken'. When in fact you were just annoyed by the changes made to hauling.

[Matoro]

Well if the container's are light, that won't matter much. I haven't seen much job cancellation spam (there's much more farmin related job cancellation). Also, now dwarves can pick up many items in a short time instead of going to the stockpile with one item and coming then to get another one.

[Domitian]

Feel free to re-read my post and then understand that you are quoting something i never said. I never said broken. But it is definitely bugged.

Job cancellation spam and absolutely counterintuitive hauling (again, hauling the big item to the small item) are bugs. Unless of course one would natually take their dresser to the laundry room to put away their clothes (and then return the dresser to the bedroom of course!).

And rather than reply with more flames, just move on. I'm asking if anyone has any insight as to whether further changes to this system have been mentioned for the next release or have been modded, not a debate on the definition of bug. 

[Domitian]

Well if the container's are light, that won't matter much. I haven't seen much job cancellation spam (there's much more farmin related job cancellation). Also, now dwarves can pick up many items in a short time instead of going to the stockpile with one item and coming then to get another one.

I've been having more of the negative consequences than the positive. Its frustrating to see my guys haul valuable containers outside to pick up single items.   

If it combined the new features (multi-item pickup, etc) with the logic of the last system (carry individual items by hand) it would be a great system.

[PrimusRibbus]

I don't mean to come across as trolly, but I find it strange how quickly people appear on the DF forums to claim that everything about a feature is working perfectly and it's the user's problem. Given how many workarounds the average player has to use to avoid job cancellation spam and chain of production breakdown, I don't think it's unfair to ask whether tweaks could be made to improve the current system.

there's much more farmin related job cancellation

All of my massive amounts of farm spam are related to the hauling system. Specifically dwarves grabbing a bag or barrel to put away one seed, while 20 other haulers attempt to grab the same bag/barrel to pick up another seed, and 10 farmers attempt to plant crops using seeds in the bag being held by the hauler dwarf.

One can turn off the job spam announcements, yes, but it's a shame that we can no longer see important job cancellation notices due to all the spam.

[11sparky11]

*snip*

I think my point came across wrong, but I do think the farming related spam defiantly needs to be fixed. 

[enizer]

I cant say i like all the hauling changes, i get why stone is heavy and needs a wheelbarrow, that makes sense.
but in most things that fit in bins and barrels, those things used to get done in no time,
Now, it's months of the same damn 3-8 dwarves hauling a bin or barrel back and forth.
Try gathering plants that grow wild, i designated a 30x30 gather-all-plants spot on the surface, that took so long that much of the plants regrew before the job finished.
95% of that time?
One dwarf hauling a barrel back and forth, for each berry.

Dwarf finds a berry in a bush.
Dwarf runs back to the fort.
Dwarf come back with a barrel to put the berry in.
Dwarf returns the barrel to the stockpile.
Dwarf goes to pick the next bush.

This is an extra two steps that take really long due to heavy barrels, and god forbid i actually make stone pots, they make this even slower.

Much of the hauling changes are good, but the bin/barrel part just takes a LOT longer then it used to, AND looks really stupid.

[Domitian]

The idea behind the hauling changes are indeed good. I think the problems are from bugs in the logic behind dwarven decision making. I can't imagine Toady intended dwarves to haul the heavy object (barrel/pot/etc) to the light (armor/berry/fish/etc). What i'd truly like to know is if Toady sees this as something that needs to be fixed (and plans to) or if it is working as intended.

[slothen]

I think a lot of the problems could be fixed on Toady's end by inserting some sanity checks on distance and weight for certain jobs, and I do expect this will happen eventually (calling anything "done," or assuming Toady thinks anything is "done" is not something to say/assume lightly).  For me though, literally the only time I've even noticed a problem was with with seed bags, and that took all of 5 seconds to fix by adding a second seed stockpile.  Personally I've been pretty happy about the mining/rock/smelting changes, as well as the increased options for stockpiles and workshops.  Occasionally I'll see a dwarf hauling a really heavy bin of armor or metal crafts, but that in itself doesn't cause spam, or eat into my fortress's available dwarf-power enough for me to care.  Regarding berry-picking or fishing, if you turn off food hauling on those dwarfs, should actually speed up the process.

[Domitian]

Hm, that would likely help some (turning off hauling), but it isnt something i typically like to do until i have enough immigrants to afford dedicated haulers. Hate to turn that off on one of my 8.