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[Lenglon]

mechanics question - it is first team to 3 wins, right

If 3 sabotages = Spy win, no more extra weeks.
Rebel wins when all 5 missions are completed and >50% = successes.

Um, so.. We have to reach 5, they have to reach 3? or is it we have to reach 3, they have to reach 3? or we have to succeed on week 5, they have to reach 3?

right now I'm leaning towards an Upvote? I guess?

Uncertainty?

Why am I grouped with them?

yes,

I'm not sure how I'll vote

1 spy means fission mailed, so from my perspective, since I'm being auto-excluded, this is the same dilemma as everyone else will be in on week 5. We have to get it perfect. I'm not certain of the scumteam, so I'm not certain of if this team will pass or fail.

I'm only grouping people because of the above "perfect or fail" issue. I have to be sure everyone else who is sidelined is a spy. reality is I'm not certain at all, but the team sheep is proposing is about as good as it's gonna get, short of one including myself. I really want more out of Dariush and Nerjin though, to cement my views.
Dariush: Lenglon starts repeatedly poking dariush in the belly (but not near his gunshot wound) with her right index finger.
"Helllooooooooooo? Oniisan! stop sulking! please? I'm sorry that I forgot about your gunshot wound, okay? Please? I'm sorry Oniisan! Please talk to me again. Please? Oniisaaaaaaannnn..."

"Fine! Mr. Sulkypants..."
Lenglon looks around the room for a moment, then turns and run over in front of Tiruin.

Tiruin: "Storytime! Could you pleeeeeeeeeeeease tell me the tale of Tiruin the Rebel? Please? Pleasepleasepleasepweesepweesepweesepweese?"
Lenglon stares imploringly at Tiruin, wide-eyed and curious.

[Tiruin]

EBWOP (wasn't clear)

right now I'm leaning towards an Upvote? I guess?

Uncertainty?

Why am I grouped with them?

yes

Err, snarking disregarding, I meant that of all the people, the tells point to these people how?

Also you keep on putting the 'I'm a Rebel Role' so subtly. Why do you keep on doing that? :/

Spoiler: Oh Lenglon, you. (click to show/hide)

Tiruin: "Storytime! Could you pleeeeeeeeeeeease tell me the tale of Tiruin the Rebel? Please? Pleasepleasepleasepweesepweesepweesepweese?"
Lenglon stares imploringly at Tiruin, wide-eyed and curious.

"This isn't helping."
Tiruin gazes into Lenglon's eyes.
"But you're young anyway and everyone else pretty much needs a perk-up. Ahh, fine. But only this once, just because you asked nicely."
She flips her clipboard and presents the drawing of a Rebel poster.

"This represents our mission. Our goal. Our being. To avoid the horrors that plague our land.

"Hunger, poverty, disease, and death.

"These are the pains of the people of the Empire.  The people are suffering, while the leaders of the Empire do nothing. Their voices go unheard in the night. That is to say, they were unheard. That was the situation up until a few months ago. Until when we decided to act; whether failure or success, by not acting we would've at least done something that so many could not.

"Take up arms against the tyrants.

"Now young one, you know of the March Revolution. It was a squad minus one in number--their leader was misplaced, mayhap, I'm unsure of that detail--I was one of them. These nine focused on subversion; on denouncing the empire through its own ways on all fronts other than brutal murder. We would not use their own tools to cow the populace, but to show what the wrongs were in plain sight. Sure, my compatriots disagreed, and proceeded to go on assassinations, but I only stuck with the lower deals. Arson, blackmail and jaywalking. Because curse them and their 'seven second wait for passing cars on a pedestrian lane' rule. Which nobody follows.

"Anyway, we failed, to be short. Anything else would dishonor my allies. There were three, count them, three spies amongst us; a staggering shock to our numbers. Luckily, our conman exchanged the papers for execution and we were sent off to prison after a few weeks rather than days, explaining the long wait we had in prison.

"Of course this always spells Death anyway. Prisons are much like execution sites, minus the short term sentence. There was obviously fear in the air, and none of us (who have taken a pact to not know each other past incarceration lest we betray each other under probability of torture or death) could break past the security."
Tiruin looks away before staring at an indistinct object somewhere in the warehouse. You guess it's for dramatic effect.
"Cue the revolutionaries. Apparently, our act was caught in the news, and despite their scathing remarks, we were saved by a small crack squad of ex-military and mercenary gunmen, as well as a fairly mustached frenchman armed with a grenade launcher..heh, can't forget his name. Jacques..Oh, um, right. Like I was saying, they liberated us from the prison and we split ways at the railroads."
Tiruin shrugs.
"And so it came to this. Us seven--the original rebels along with some of the others we found in prison, or so I guess anyway, nobody told me their origins. I got the impression that you young ones look at the older ones for guidance and all, and if I could, I would take up arms myself. To make the revolution proud.

"But things get in the way, and I'm old. I've seen the brunt of my youth toiled away in the empire, and my reflexes aren't as fast as before. Still, the flame burns on, and I'd best tell you (spy or not, I'm still biased!) to keep your pretty eyes on the goal instead of the people."
She clasps Lenglon on the shoulder and ruffles her hair for a bit before standing up and walking outside to take a breather.

I'm only grouping people because of the above "perfect or fail" issue. I have to be sure everyone else who is sidelined is a spy. reality is I'm not certain at all, but the team sheep is proposing is about as good as it's gonna get, short of one including myself. I really want more out of Dariush and Nerjin though, to cement my views.

Hm, I take it by this you mean that I'm a surefire spy in your eyes, aye?

[Dariush]

-snip-
The pertinent part is bolded and made huge.

So, you think that scum NQT somehow made an attempt to stealthily tell his scummates the order of voting, which was noticed by scum but ignored by all townies. Somehow. Having no guarantee that this will happen exactly this way (two exact people noticing, five exact people not noticing). A much likelier possibility is that you are a spy openly telling your scumbuddies in large bold text which scheme to use.

I don’t know that doesn’t seem likely either. You’d have to be an ABSOLUTE moron to be that obvious. I’m pretty sure that Griffpup is just sharing his idea. Though I’ll admit it’s a pretty unlikely one. I suppose I’ll have to keep an eye out on that.

You don't have to be a moron, you just have to be extremely desperate. Which you would be, if you enter W3D2 without a plan to avoid sabotage overlaps.

Daruish:

Oooh, intentionally trying to provoke me? I don't see a single way rebel would think that is a good idea. Yep, you're scum.

No, I don't.  I think that NQT somehow made an attempt to tell his scummates the order of voting, which might of been noticed by scum and ignored by all but two townies.  But, just to be clear, I'm obviously scum because I'm attempting to communicate with my scumbuddies by QUOTING ANOTHER'S POST???  But this person was obviously not scum, even though they said the scummy thing in the first place, because when he said it it wasn't bolded, or in large text.  That's your argument, right?

My argument is that NQT in his inifinite stupidity just made an observation on the last game. It was a part of a larger paragraph and if this were an instruction to his scumbuddies, then there's no guarantee they would even read the post. You, on the other part, enlarged this part specifically to tell your buddies 'HERE IS THE SCHEME WE'RE GOING TO USE' to ensure everyone is going to see it while having the defense of attacking NQT. You killed two birds with one stone - you told your scumbuddies the scheme and managed to turn a random statement into an attack against a townie.

You're accusing me of openly telling my scumbuddies "what scheme to use."  But, you don't see any possibility of NQT attempting the same thing?

Openly. Yes, I see the possibility of NQT attempting the same thing, but I don't see him having done it, because if it were an attempt at communication, then it was risky as hell and unreliable. You, on the other hand, have a defense ready.

Are you accusing Lenglon of being scum as well?  If not, why's it ok for him to raise suspicions about scum communicating but not me?

Yep, she is currently around third on my scummeter (after you and TWS).

GriffPup: why did you vote up a team containing NQT and yourself when NQT was on the team that was sabotaged?

Because I made said team.  It would be counterproductive to downvote your own team.

Yay for the scummiest explanation ever. Knowingly upvoting a team with someone you suspect of being a spy just because you made it, let alone making it in the first place? Haha, more like you didn't want to risk having another team done that doesn't contain a spy.

Dariush, NQT and Nerjin:  Please, in a sentence or two, let me know if you believe that you would lie low on the first mission if you were scum.  (Dariush, I'm pretty sure I know your answer already, but humor me please)

Nope, probably not. There'd be time enough to reingratiate myself later.

-snip-
The pertinent part is bolded and made huge.

So, you think that scum NQT somehow made an attempt to stealthily tell his scummates the order of voting, which was noticed by scum but ignored by all townies. Somehow. Having no guarantee that this will happen exactly this way (two exact people noticing, five exact people not noticing). A much likelier possibility is that you are a spy openly telling your scumbuddies in large bold text which scheme to use.

Dariush: the hell is this? please, explain how you'd call out someone on being scum communicating to other scum that doesn't involving pointing out where they communicated and what they communicated.

If you cannot even be bothered to read the thread, then at least click on his name to be taken to the post I'm -snip-ping from.

Downvoting the team, BTW.

[Griffionday]

Down-vote on account of Nerjin & Griff, which I've yet to explain I guess...

Firstly though: On NQT

Then there's the thing that sets you apart from everyone else: you're the only person who seriously considered scum triple voting a possibility.

GriffDay: I don't understand the significance of this, could you please explain further?

Sure!  There's the obvious: it shows he thinks different than us, therefor he probably is looking at the game from another viewpoint.

But I feel what really marks this as scum to my mind is the fact that this shows that he's treating this as a game of possibilities rather than probabilities.  The fact that his mind doesn't immediately reject the possibility of all three scum being in a team indicates that he's NOT critically thinking about what the team distribution is likely to be (Seriously if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW there was one scum on the mission two the probability of there being three scum on the team is 1.7% which most people seem to have taken into account subconsciously).  Rather this indicates that he's trying to mask his actual knowledge by stating the possibilities like he's actually considering them.

NQT gave reasons for not trusting me and you? (bolded part)
...Links please? I don't recall him ever doing that. All I saw (yes, in that link you've got there) is a deal of caution. And then brought up the dictionary on that one part which seems going along your idea there.

You quoted it actually:

Okay pals, we got lucky this first mission. Essentially there are four possible explanations for the success:

Dariush honestly random genned the results and the team was all rebel. (Dariush, NQT, Nerjin and Griffpup are all rebels.)

Dariush honestly random genned the results and the team included one scum (Dariush is a rebel but one or more of NQT, Nerjin and Griffinpup are spies.)

Dariush is scum and fixed the team with one or more spies. (Dariush and one or two of the mission one participants are a spy.)

Dariush is scum and fixed the team with all town to make himself look good when the mission invariably passed.

-snip-

If the first team was all town, spies would have an incentive not to pass it (tempered somewhat by their desire to blend in), as such we have prima facie reasons to not put forward Tiruin and Shinigami until we have more data.

Note what he's saying here: down voting is a scum tell because the team obviously had no spies in it; after he JUST said the team had a 50% chance of having spies in it.  Which is backtracking bullshit.

On Nerjin:

I'm leaning towards the probability being that the first group had two scum in it.  Assuming that all three of the people day one are telling the truth (which I can argue case by case that they probably were), but that if there were two spies they would both automatically lie low, the probabilities of week one become:

Code: (Updated Absolute Probabilities of Week 1) [Select]

# of scum = 0: 31.5%
          = 1: 17.9%
          = 2: 47.5%
          = 3:  3.1%
Now of Griff and Nerjin, the one I trust the least right now is the latter.  However it does seem odd that a spy would comment on another spy's use of hypotheticals if it was obvious (to the spy) that he was communicating something.  Using it to distance themselves makes perfect sense which incriminates griffinpup more. 

Anyway; I need to do a re-read now that I'm pretty sure there were two spies on the first mission to see who I would call the second spy.

Nerjin, sorry I don't have those reads for you yet.

[birdy51]

The team has been locked in! Send in your vote PMs!

Voting ends on Thursday, July 11th at 10PM EST!

[Lenglon]

Tiruin, thank you very much for the well done story/recap of the plot of the game, and it actually did help me keep track of what we're supposed to be doing, but...
Tiruin: Um, I actually was referencing a different story, the story of how your actions and priorities changed between week 2 and week 3 day 1 (see the phrasing I used the last time I went over this to see how the questions are tied). Basically I was re-asking you same the question from before, but this time you have more context to understand what is bothering me about it.

regarding if I'm certain that you're a spy, that's actually a no. I don't have enough hard evidence, and people are people, meaning weird. I saw you acting weird once, so I'm watching you with suspicion, but stuff happens. In the meantime though, I plan on going ahead and acting on the assumption you're a spy, at least for now. The only person I'm totally sure of right now is NQT.

regarding the whole "phrasing things to subtlety say that i'm a Rebel role" thing. I honestly haven't thought about it all that much, but you're right in that I am doing it. I guess it's because I'm spending a lot of time explaining things from my perspective, and since my perspective includes having that as one of my basic assumptions, that message filters through. why the question?
Dariush: please answer the question I asked, rather than respond to a general-form objection to your post. I read GriffPup's post quite thoroughly thank you very much.
GriffDay: what are your objections to GriffPup?

[TheWetSheep]

What? I did address it to you. Right here. Nerjin just didn't quote that part.

No you didn't. You didn't even follow it up but throw out blank accusations without explaining it more.

You didn't even link it right.

Oh, yeah, sorry about the link. But yes, it was addressed to you. It was under the part labeled "Tiruin". And what's there to follow up? I called you out on it, what more could I have said?

How am I accusing Nerjin?

I was talking about me. >_> Seems good that you're jumping off that notion, huh.

But... Nerjin was the one prodding me about it. And I did address you in the part you linked. Or are you talking about somewhere else?

I'm understanding him more now. I'd like him to post now, though.

So you subtly say Dariush instead of poking me.

Which you fail to address. Forever.

I assumed when he said the last member he meant the last person who I mentioned, who was Dariush.

    > Why yourself.

Really? Because I'm a rebel.

Like we know that, smart guy. Failure to give any context seems best here. Especially if you're a spy.

[/quote]I'm not sure what you want. I'm obviously going to put myself on the team. You want me to give reasons for me being town? Those are for you to find, not me to tell you. Asking me for reasons for putting myself on the team is stupid.

    > Why Griffionday.

Already said.

    > Why griffinpup.

Already said.

Say it again, that's why I'm asking.

Why? I'm not going to suddenly have more reasons because you ask me instead of Nerjin. But whatever:

Griffinpup is my top pick for town right now, because he backs up his actions with good reasons and is behaving like I would expect a rebel to: questioning things and looking for slips and communications.

Griffionday is fairly null but seems to be putting effort in. Everyone else seems more suspicious to me than him, so I put him on. It's mostly process of elimination instead of his own merit.

> Why not Lenglon.

Remuthra's actions, giving up, etc.

*AHEM* LENGLON.

Seeing that, you're basing everything due to her predecessor. Something...stupid, really. An etc is not a good tell.

They have the same role. If Remuthra was scum, so is Lenglon. I'm not basing stuff off Lenglon's behaviour because I don't have anything on her yet.

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

If I had to choose from Dariush, Nerjin and you, Dariush would be my last pick. I trust him least.

   

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

EBWOP

So yet you still noted Dariush, and me, in your previous picks.

Then you go ahead and put Nerjin instead.

Why

Because I wasn't sure at the time who I was going to put on. I obviously had to choose one of you three, why are you surprised when I did?

Nerjin:Your reads, please. Also, if you don't believe that Tiruin's thing was trying to appear townie, then shouldn't you be sure she's town? After all, scum would certainly know how many scum there are.

Dariush:

Yep, she is currently around third on my scummeter (after you and TWS).

What are your reasons for suspecting me?

Also, please stop ignoring this post.

[TheWetSheep]

Oh, and Birdy: You should probably take the replacement requests out of the thread title.

[griffinpup]

No, I don't.  I think that NQT somehow made an attempt to tell his scummates the order of voting, which might of been noticed by scum and ignored by all but two townies.  But, just to be clear, I'm obviously scum because I'm attempting to communicate with my scumbuddies by QUOTING ANOTHER'S POST???  But this person was obviously not scum, even though they said the scummy thing in the first place, because when he said it it wasn't bolded, or in large text.  That's your argument, right?

My argument is that NQT in his inifinite stupidity just made an observation on the last game. It was a part of a larger paragraph and if this were an instruction to his scumbuddies, then there's no guarantee they would even read the post. You, on the other part, enlarged this part specifically to tell your buddies 'HERE IS THE SCHEME WE'RE GOING TO USE' to ensure everyone is going to see it while having the defense of attacking NQT. You killed two birds with one stone - you told your scumbuddies the scheme and managed to turn a random statement into an attack against a townie.

So NQT is completely townie in your book with no questioning whatsoever or anything backing up that statement.  Got it.  What's even better, you automatically assume that NQT was just being stupid as well, while what I'm doing is automatically scum.  OBVIOUSLY THERE'S NO GUARANTEE THE SCUM TEAM WOULD CATCH THE ATTEMPT OF COMMUNICATION.  That's not the point.  Scum doesn't have to catch it for town to find an attempt to communicate.  Your whole case relies on "NQT is just being stupid, and he messed up" and "A spy NQT is too smart to attempt communication that might not be read by his scumbuddies"  These are contradictory.  You're merely flailing scum trying to paint me as a spy for POINTING OUT COMMUNICATION while providing fallacious arguments to explain why NQT wouldn't do such a thing, without questioning him or commenting on his explanations ONCE.

You're accusing me of openly telling my scumbuddies "what scheme to use."  But, you don't see any possibility of NQT attempting the same thing?

Openly. Yes, I see the possibility of NQT attempting the same thing, but I don't see him having done it, because if it were an attempt at communication, then it was risky as hell and unreliable. You, on the other hand, have a defense ready.

Again, you claim NQT is far to intelligent to do something risky or unreliable.  I am, on the other hand, obviously scum because I HAVE DEFENSES AND THEY ACTUALLY MAKE SENSE.  Nice try, scum.

GriffPup: why did you vote up a team containing NQT and yourself when NQT was on the team that was sabotaged?

Because I made said team.  It would be counterproductive to downvote your own team.

Yay for the scummiest explanation ever. Knowingly upvoting a team with someone you suspect of being a spy just because you made it, let alone making it in the first place? Haha, more like you didn't want to risk having another team done that doesn't contain a spy.

Try reading the thread next time.  It'l make you look less like an idiot. 

GriffPup: why did you vote up a team containing NQT and yourself when NQT was on the team that was sabotaged?

Because I made said team.  It would be counterproductive to downvote your own team.

GriffPup: how so? if the team was simply to reaction-test, then you wouldn't want it to pass anyway. if it wasn't, could you please explain why you picked the people you did for that team? despite it containing a member of the team that was sabotaged (other than yourself)?

I'll answer the second question first.  There were three other people on the team that failed.  There was only one sabotage attempt.  That implies that there's one scum out of those three.  That means that there's two scum in the remaining four.  I literally couldn't of made a team without scum on it if i DIDN'T include someone from a failed mission.
Also, the team being a reaction test doesn't mean that my individual reads on every member weren't true.  Obviously my read on NQT has changed, but the others haven't changed dramatically.  Passing that team wasn't the primary goal.  That doesn't mean it wasn't A goal.

I already elaborated on this answer.

-snip-
The pertinent part is bolded and made huge.

So, you think that scum NQT somehow made an attempt to stealthily tell his scummates the order of voting, which was noticed by scum but ignored by all townies. Somehow. Having no guarantee that this will happen exactly this way (two exact people noticing, five exact people not noticing). A much likelier possibility is that you are a spy openly telling your scumbuddies in large bold text which scheme to use.

Dariush: the hell is this? please, explain how you'd call out someone on being scum communicating to other scum that doesn't involving pointing out where they communicated and what they communicated.

If you cannot even be bothered to read the thread, then at least click on his name to be taken to the post I'm -snip-ping from.

Nice job completely avoiding the question.  ANSWER IT THIS TIME. 

Also,

[griffinpup]

I missed a few points.

-snip-
The pertinent part is bolded and made huge.

So, you think that scum NQT somehow made an attempt to stealthily tell his scummates the order of voting, which was noticed by scum but ignored by all townies. Somehow. Having no guarantee that this will happen exactly this way (two exact people noticing, five exact people not noticing). A much likelier possibility is that you are a spy openly telling your scumbuddies in large bold text which scheme to use.

I don’t know that doesn’t seem likely either. You’d have to be an ABSOLUTE moron to be that obvious. I’m pretty sure that Griffpup is just sharing his idea. Though I’ll admit it’s a pretty unlikely one. I suppose I’ll have to keep an eye out on that.

You don't have to be a moron, you just have to be extremely desperate. Which you would be, if you enter W3D2 without a plan to avoid sabotage overlaps.

Apparently I'm a really desperate scum...  Let's look at it from your point of view.  I'm scum along with TWS and Lenglon.  TWS is up for picking a team, and suddenly I'm EXTREMELY DESPERATE because suddenly double sabotage overlaps are a huge threat.  Wouldn't TWS simply place only one scum on the team, and completely avoid the possibility at all?  The fact is that if the scum are what you claim, I would have no reason whatsoever to be "extremely desperate."  Your cases rest fully on fallacious logic. 

Daruish:

Oooh, intentionally trying to provoke me? I don't see a single way rebel would think that is a good idea. Yep, you're scum.

You're really scraping the bottom of the barrel for scumtells, aren't you?  Find me ONE EXAMPLE OF WHEN THIS SCUMTELL EVER FOUND SCUM.
Also, what happened to those probabilities you remembered calculating?  Or were you just completely making that up?
Griffy:
Why do you think NQT is scum?

[birdy51]

Oh, and Birdy: You should probably take the replacement requests out of the thread title.

Silly me. >.>

[notquitethere]

Griffionday

Sure!  There's the obvious: it shows he thinks different than us, therefor he probably is looking at the game from another viewpoint.

But I feel what really marks this as scum to my mind is the fact that this shows that he's treating this as a game of possibilities rather than probabilities.  The fact that his mind doesn't immediately reject the possibility of all three scum being in a team indicates that he's NOT critically thinking about what the team distribution is likely to be (Seriously if it weren't for the fact that we KNOW there was one scum on the mission two the probability of there being three scum on the team is 1.7% which most people seem to have taken into account subconsciously).  Rather this indicates that he's trying to mask his actual knowledge by stating the possibilities like he's actually considering them.

I do think different to you-- I agree, I think this is a game of possibilities more than probabilities, but you'll note that this perspective would have won the rebels the last game if they'd listened to me. I think you're grasping at straws chum.

[griffinpup]

NQT:
You're not going to even respond to me?  Scummy scum scum.

[Tiruin]

TWS

What? I did address it to you. Right here. Nerjin just didn't quote that part.

No you didn't. You didn't even follow it up but throw out blank accusations without explaining it more.

You didn't even link it right.

Oh, yeah, sorry about the link. But yes, it was addressed to you. It was under the part labeled "Tiruin". And what's there to follow up? I called you out on it, what more could I have said?

a. Explaining why and how.
b. Addressing Lenglon, who was also interested in that notion.
c. Expounding on that 'slip' and what constitutes a slip. Why am I 'trying hard', when there is no stimulus for me to try hard to achieve.
d. Reasons.

Because that recent post of yours? Screams evading the question with a rational answer. Your answers do make sense, but lacking.

Holistically lacking.

What's there to follow up? Your case. You can't just call someone out and assume it's bound in stone because 'Hey everyone! She slipped. Here.' Discuss?

This is quite the crucial mistake you're making for one who has caught a slip of the tongue, aye?

Or maybe I must simplify it. Are you going to ask me in the face your case for that being a slip, or are you going to prod everyone else on a paltry notion which you can't even address to your recipient?

    > Why yourself.

Really? Because I'm a rebel.

Like we know that, smart guy. Failure to give any context seems best here. Especially if you're a spy.

I'm not sure what you want. I'm obviously going to put myself on the team. You want me to give reasons for me being town? Those are for you to find, not me to tell you. Asking me for reasons for putting myself on the team is stupid.[/quote]

REALLY now?

It's only a simple question. Nothing wrong in asking it, is there? The only right or wrong we can attribute to something is judging both processes of the communication. Answer and question.

Your answer? Something nebulous and vague to all of us. Yea, say you're a rebel. Anyone can say it. Do we know it?

No.

You want me to find reasons on you being town? Sure, I can see them, I can type them out, but those reasons don't seal your innocence, buddy. I'd like you to show them other than commit to the logical fallacy of letting the other person find them, because that falls under

Shifting the Burden of proof – 'I need not prove my claim, you must prove it is false'. This explains something about you--you're expecting us to prove you innocent instead of you doing it yourself.

You need reasons. Because we can't all see you as a rebel, and it would hardly make sense if you were a rebel to even assume such. It's the simplest analogy anyone could make!

> Why not Lenglon.

Remuthra's actions, giving up, etc.

*AHEM* LENGLON.

Seeing that, you're basing everything due to her predecessor. Something...stupid, really. An etc is not a good tell.

They have the same role. If Remuthra was scum, so is Lenglon. I'm not basing stuff off Lenglon's behaviour because I don't have anything on her yet.[/quote]
And yet you base it all on Remuthra when you don't even consider poking Lenglon. Who has, and which I believe you've at least skimmed, a better analogy and grasp of concepts here.

You don't have anything on her yet, or you can't find anything on her, huh? Look back, she has quite the number of posts.

Right.

There.

Evidently more than Remuthra's posts. Can't you find anything in her posts to prod?

I doubt that. While you do agree and bring out relevant points, you don't explain your own basis on those points. Not even an 'I agree with so-and-so' on 'point a,b,c and f.'

What's your basis on Remuthra being scum? And why?

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

If I had to choose from Dariush, Nerjin and you, Dariush would be my last pick. I trust him least.

   

Sheep:Why Dariush over Nerjin? unless I've been misreading, you think Dariush is a spy, why would you include him?

I meant he'd be the last one of the three I'd put on the team. As in, I trust him least.

...I don't even get what you're trying to say.

EBWOP

So yet you still noted Dariush, and me, in your previous picks.

Then you go ahead and put Nerjin instead.

Why

Because I wasn't sure at the time who I was going to put on. I obviously had to choose one of you three, why are you surprised when I did?

[/quote]
Surprise is something you'd like to see, huh. I don't think anyone else could see surprise there, mainly curiosity.

It would be very surprising indeed if you didn't choose at all given the context, and the lacking reasons behind them help support it. Which you don't give other than the obvious 'choosing' process.

Would it make more sense to ask why you chose those people? I asked that, didn't I? You chose those people, and yet you lack a reasonable answer.

Or was the matter on choosing Nerjin something you're trying to avoid until you think of something else to put down? Because other than give anything informative on the difference between Tiruin and Nerjin, you give a blank 'I choose you!' note. I mean, it's pretty obvious that you didn't trust Dariush. Why bother to repeat that? Because its all cyclic before I've to ask you to answer the important questions. Everything else not mentioned.

Squirm more, scum.

Anyone. Anyone would give their reasons on their choices. Any thinking Rebel would at least care on those matters. In my view, you're intentionally missing the point. Putting numerous arguments that may in themself be valid, but do not address the issue in question.

Why?

Lenglon

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tiruin, thank you very much for the well done story/recap of the plot of the game, and it actually did help me keep track of what we're supposed to be doing, but...
Tiruin: Um, I actually was referencing a different story, the story of how your actions and priorities changed between week 2 and week 3 day 1 (see the phrasing I used the last time I went over this to see how the questions are tied). Basically I was re-asking you same the question from before, but this time you have more context to understand what is bothering me about it.

regarding if I'm certain that you're a spy, that's actually a no. I don't have enough hard evidence, and people are people, meaning weird. I saw you acting weird once, so I'm watching you with suspicion, but stuff happens. In the meantime though, I plan on going ahead and acting on the assumption you're a spy, at least for now. The only person I'm totally sure of right now is NQT.

regarding the whole "phrasing things to subtlety say that i'm a Rebel role" thing. I honestly haven't thought about it all that much, but you're right in that I am doing it. I guess it's because I'm spending a lot of time explaining things from my perspective, and since my perspective includes having that as one of my basic assumptions, that message filters through. why the question?

...You asked me in the form of italics, which I presume is flavor, so you got flavor. What can you make of that?

Anyway, I can understand that suspicion, and the vote pattern idea. However what I don't get is what you see on the pattern. I downvoted the first two, yes. I stated reasons backing them.

So priorities. Note on the shift between them and this point.

It was getting more along the lines of nowhere. Blanked information. Lacking discussion. Lacking people. Post-viewpoint, (and I'm partly confused to what you're looking for..my own interpretation of my
'shifting views' as you see it?).

Ok:
> I upvoted the team because I had no qualms with the other people mentioned. I had examined their posts and reasoning beforehand, and found little to nothing scummy either in intention or motive.

The cruxes of my basis:

We've got 3 people including myself abstaining from getting picked, and most of the rest (>~50%) are just saying yea or nay to the team.[This implies abstinence..caution or not, its pretty hard to tell when nobody talks. Wild guessing. Something I'm against.]

Second is that people are either waiting for a mission failure to do anything, or just keeping silent until something of note happens.

The first part of the second statement goes on the idea on people finally talking and drawing lines to match up who did what.

But then I found something. Remuthra.

You can see how I tried talking to him. Ended in failure, but gained useful notes along the way. The shift of attitude? I'm still interested in communication, but when I see suspicious acts, I tend to insert a veil of aggression into it to make my point heard.

I see your reasoning, it's simple, and the conclusion makes sense. Though, anyone could see how implicating someone as a spy would work. Find deviation; write up some basis of suspicion against them. Yet what matters is the context therein. Something I didn't see in any of my teammates.

...and nobody asked this. griffinpup: Why choose someone who wanted a replacement, and who had asked for it beforehand to place in the team?

I'm still unsure of what you see changed in priorities and actions (perhaps the lack of me saying I upvote/downvote? Or the team in question? You saw lacking material, perhaps?)

But to continue: why I don't trust you..primarily your alter-ego.
This says yea. His perception on the team he was on with lacking..everything, really.

He did answer my query on scapegoats. Something which he pointed out himself (2 posts above that.)

As for the scapegoating, I recognize that, which is why I'm upvoting the team anyway.

Which..I didn't comment upon but file in my folder of suspicion. Because I didn't get the grammar and why he added an 'anyway'. Sounds like being nonchalant(?) or apathetic. Can't find the word for it.

Next, post-mission, he draws back and fails to answer everything. Note that he downvoted the next team (failed team comprising of NQT, the Griffins [Griffionday=Shinigami], and me) despite..well, you know my case. Me restating it over and over would just lead to dishonor.

But what came to mind is something along Kettle logic(?) I can't get my terms right, but it rings along the lines of abstinence to answer, with fear of a nebulous idea, with label on a vague notion which could act as a label on anything (WIFOM much? Not WIFOM when you, yourself, brought it up along with an affirmation on your side with the lack of explanation if the team passes/fails.)

Notes who I'm quite sure of on that:
TWS.
Lenglon (while you do make a good case, mostly reasonable there, I really can't see how Remuthra can justify himself at all with those kinds of posts and contradictions. And apathy.)

...I'll really have to re-read now on what the rest are poking at. Because RL is really killing me.

PFP - RL x_x

[Tiruin]

Also tentative replacement -- Just in advance, I'm pretty sure workload will increase exponentially and my lack of sleep won't be helping. 

Tentative due to the fact that if birdy can't find any in the next few days, I'll still be playing as normal upon announcement, but I'm pretty unsure about my physical strength..bluh.