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[Tiruin]

"Oh great, we're all doomed now."

So if our leader is a spy, who amongst the people do you think he added in is a spy?

[Nerjin]

I don't know honestly.

[Tiruin]

...So that'd back up your allegation of Griffin being a spy..how?

[Nerjin]

I suppose it wouldn't but I never really claimed to know who else was a spy did I? I simply said that his reasoning on Dariush is way too shaky, his reason for trusting Shinigami_King is a very poor one [to the point of being extremely laughable] and the fact that he claims to be sending NQT doesn't even make sense. "So I'm gonna risk the game to test this. Granted if I mess this up then EVERYONE loses because the odds of us doing perfectly Day 5 is nearly 0."

[notquitethere]

Setting me up as a spy if the mission fails doesn't make a whole lot of sense, Griffinpup: you'd have to be damn sure you could keep spies out of the last two missions.

[TheWetSheep]

Yeah, I don't like this one. Firstly, I don't trust Griffinpup anymore, and secondly, a Dariush-Remuthra-Shinigami scumteam(the one we're left with if we exclude this team and me) doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would Dariush not put a member of his team on the first mission?

Tiruin:

So if our leader is a spy, who amongst the people do you think he added in is a spy?

Why would he put more spies on his team if he was already on it?

Dariush:

TWS, I'm tired of you imitating activity by endlessly chewing the same nonsense in my direction. If you have a specific reason to consider me scum, say so. I have already explained why I considered a random team to be the best solution multiple times beginning with the very first post and I'm not going to repeat it again just because you phrased the question a bit differently. I have already explained that I have a strong anti-self-picking opinion only on D1 when the leader can put himself on for no reason whatsoever (besides, at the time of my approving the team my read on gpup was fairly townish). If you have specific questions to ask, do so, but I am not going to repeat basically everything just because you either are a mentally deficient cretin or intentionally imitate one.

I'm not asking you to repeat your reasons. I'm asking you to clarify what you meant here:

So you're saying that all scumtells are derived from the fact that scum can communicate?

Stop twisting my words. What you said only works before D1 team is locked in - i.e. before scum can 'demonstrate' their alignment by voting in odd ways, extracting strange conclusions from night results and so on.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. What it looks like you're saying is this: "RQS only works before D1 team is locked in, because after that scum can mess up opinions by doing all that stuff". Is that right?


So far, Occam's Razor says that the spy-team is Tiruin, Shinigami and Remuthra. This also makes sense with how the votes have played out, with Tiruin and Shinigami downvoting the first one, and Tiruin downvoting the second one. It was pretty obvious from what people said that the team was going to be passed, so she could have downvoted for us to trust her.

It's odd, because what the evidence points to gives me a completely different view on who's scum than what people have said.

Tiruin:

Now while I would give a long-winded explanation of my basis of rejection, there's pretty much no communication I see at all between any of the team members at each other, for one. Second is that people are either waiting for a mission failure to do anything, or just keeping silent until something of note happens.

So you won't give a full explanation for your rejection because people aren't talking enough? Isn't that the point of posting these things, to get people talking?

[griffinpup]

Wow.  That worked better then expected.

Turiun
His arguments have mostly made sense so far, and my gut says he's good.

"Thanks for getting my name and gender right. You will be remembered if this all works out, and even then."

>_>

So why'd you shift Dar out again? Compare that to T1, how would his interactions and team choices have influenced the game at that point? As being the leader?

I admit i should of spelled you name right, but trying to get your gender right while you have a male picture is really confusing.

What does T1 stand for? 
I removed Dar and changed up the team a bit because everyone was taking my suggested team too easily.  Nearly everyone that had responded had responded in the positive.  That means that the team was acceptable for both the rebels and the spies.  Considering the fact that the spies are informed while the rebels are merely guessing, it's better to make neither party happy then blindly passing a team that is unanimously agreed upon.  This is why I changed the team.

I'm fairly certain that I didn't answer all your questions.  Elaborate on what I missed, and I'll get it on my next post.

How to griffinpup: Ask for opinions -> see Dariush agree -> immediatly change the team because of it.

Actually, it's more like
Ask for opinions -> See pretty much everyone agree -> Immediately change the team because of it.

Dariush, your logic for wanting Remuthra on the last team instead of you is that you wanted to get a double sabotage attempt, correct?  If so, the same logic applies to you.  You didn't want to be on the team because you didn't know which one of you was supposed to sabotage it.  Therefore, you used all that was in your power to avoid being on the team.

I'm think that NQT or Nerjin is a spy, but I'm not sure.  Both probably aren't, but I see this as a test on NQT's part to see if he's a spy or not.

Wait what? So if the team fails you will automatically assume NQT is a spy?

No.

Dariush, your logic for wanting Remuthra on the last team instead of you is that you wanted to get a double sabotage attempt, correct?  If so, the same logic applies to you.  You didn't want to be on the team because you didn't know which one of you was supposed to sabotage it.  Therefore, you used all that was in your power to avoid being on the team.  This theory makes Nerjin or NQT a spy as well, of course.
Ah well.  This is my final team picks.  I've also included an explanation.

That makes no sense. He literally said "I don't want to be placed on the team because it'll implicate me. Granted that'll be on anyone who gets sent." He didn't argue all that much over it. You're over blowing it.

You know, I would prefer to stay off the team. Too many people have unanonimously agreed to put me on instead of Remuthra (three people, Cado is absent and I am obviously not there). This leads me to believe that a spy has lied low on the first mission and will sabotage the second, thus implicating me.

You're right that he said this. But he also said this.

Then why are you fine with him being on the team?

Because in my opinion the team was already doomed. This way there was at least some chance of the spies fucking up and doing more than one sabotage.

Ooh... Look at that.  He gave us both reasons for wanting Remuthra on the team instead of himself.  I felt like it was important to point out that the latter could be applied to other people.  Himself, for example.

Shinigami King
Hasn't contributed much in this game, but I think he would be more active if he were a spy.  Not a strong read here, but I think that I kinda know how he plays, so he's on the team.

So lurking is a town-tell in your book because of meta-tells? Sounds like a good logical conclusion to me Scumbag.

In this one instance while talking about Shinigami, yes.  It's evident that you disagree with me, but how does that make me a scumbag?

NQT
I'm think that NQT or Nerjin is a spy, but I'm not sure.  Both probably aren't, but I see this as a test on NQT's part to see if he's a spy or not.

Oh yes this also makes a lot of sense. "He's a spy but I'm going to take him anyway and let him fuck up the mission. Then we'll KNOW he's a spy."

I think you're the spy Griff. You're logic isn't very good on half these people so I'm downvoting your team.

Duly noted.  Do you disagree with the team itself, or just the reasons behind them?

At least this woke you guys up.  Complete docility will kill town in this game.  But since some of you have began to see me as scum through this encounter, allow me to give my explanation. 

As I mentioned earlier, a unanimously agreed upon team will probably be disastrous for the rebels.  Seeing my first team suggestion pass most people with minimal comment and opposition, I decided to make another team for my final pick.  And ya, my reasoning for the people I chose wasn't that good.  The point wasn't necessarily to make the perfect team.  The point wasn't really to pass my team either.  The point was to create a response and to create controversy.  A scum wouldn't have any motivation to completely change their team after receiving a positive confirmation of the teams viability from most of everyone.

And a further elaboration on why I chose NQT.  My original explanation was pathetic.  I think that Nerjin is scum while NQT is a rebel.  I think that it's one or the other though.  If for some reason Nerjin begins to look town, I'll change my suspicions onto NQT.  Hence the whole thing about a test.

PPE: TheWetSheep

[griffinpup]

Yeah, I don't like this one. Firstly, I don't trust Griffinpup anymore, and secondly, a Dariush-Remuthra-Shinigami scumteam(the one we're left with if we exclude this team and me) doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would Dariush not put a member of his team on the first mission?

I'll assume that you're not being intentionally stupid.  It's better to assume that you're merely having a temporary relapse of intelligence.  That's not the team that's left.  I'm also not automatically discounting you from being a spy.  Especially after this blatant manipulation of events.

So far, Occam's Razor says that the spy-team is Tiruin, Shinigami and Remuthra. This also makes sense with how the votes have played out, with Tiruin and Shinigami downvoting the first one, and Tiruin downvoting the second one. It was pretty obvious from what people said that the team was going to be passed, so she could have downvoted for us to trust her.

It's odd, because what the evidence points to gives me a completely different view on who's scum than what people have said.

You should probably explain how Occam's razor applies to this situation.  You give very circumstantial evidence of how Shinigami and Tiruin could be on the spy team but you don't even mention how Remuthra fits in relation to them.

[Nerjin]

I'm busy right now but I'm gonna post this while I'm thinking of it: Why do you see me as spy Griff? You keep mentioning it but I don't quite remember why it would only be down to me or NQT. Why not Remuthra? He was on the failed mission as well. Do you know something we don't? Perhaps that he IS a spy sabatoged and now you're trying to toss it off on one of the other people?

[griffinpup]

Nerjin:
I don't think that Remuthra is a rebel.  Notice how he's not actually on my mission.  I think that Remuthra was so reluctant to be on the mission because there was already a spy on the team.  Hence a you or NQT scenario.  I have thought more about it though, and have decided that NQT's more likely to be scum then you.  I will explain this later.

[Tiruin]

PFP - work kills me.

Wow.  That worked better then expected.

Turiun
His arguments have mostly made sense so far, and my gut says he's good.

"Thanks for getting my name and gender right. You will be remembered if this all works out, and even then."

>_>

So why'd you shift Dar out again? Compare that to T1, how would his interactions and team choices have influenced the game at that point? As being the leader?

I admit i should of spelled you name right, but trying to get your gender right while you have a male picture is really confusing.

What does T1 stand for? 
I removed Dar and changed up the team a bit because everyone was taking my suggested team too easily.  Nearly everyone that had responded had responded in the positive.  That means that the team was acceptable for both the rebels and the spies.  Considering the fact that the spies are informed while the rebels are merely guessing, it's better to make neither party happy then blindly passing a team that is unanimously agreed upon.  This is why I changed the team.

I'm fairly certain that I didn't answer all your questions.  Elaborate on what I missed, and I'll get it on my next post.

Ehh..my picture/avatar is a gift from one of the bay12 artists, so it's holding too much sentimental value for me to change it.

T1 - Team 1. The first team done by Dariush.

...Must comment. But lacking anything to think of now. However, that is very reasonable. Blind voting. However, why didn't you give a draft of that new team rather than send it off?

TWS
You don't trust Griffinpup anymore? My, my. That's quite a drop in trust, huh.

Can you explain your doubt on that full scumteam? Or probably, which one in the DRS team is a weak link in your logic?

Yeah, I don't like this one. Firstly, I don't trust Griffinpup anymore, and secondly, a Dariush-Remuthra-Shinigami scumteam(the one we're left with if we exclude this team and me) doesn't make a lot of sense. Why would Dariush not put a member of his team on the first mission?

Tiruin:

So if our leader is a spy, who amongst the people do you think he added in is a spy?

Why would he put more spies on his team if he was already on it?
[...]

So far, Occam's Razor says that the spy-team is Tiruin, Shinigami and Remuthra. This also makes sense with how the votes have played out, with Tiruin and Shinigami downvoting the first one, and Tiruin downvoting the second one. It was pretty obvious from what people said that the team was going to be passed, so she could have downvoted for us to trust her.

It's odd, because what the evidence points to gives me a completely different view on who's scum than what people have said.

Tiruin:

Now while I would give a long-winded explanation of my basis of rejection, there's pretty much no communication I see at all between any of the team members at each other, for one. Second is that people are either waiting for a mission failure to do anything, or just keeping silent until something of note happens.

So you won't give a full explanation for your rejection because people aren't talking enough? Isn't that the point of posting these things, to get people talking?

To the first question addressed to me: Why would he put more spies on his team if he was already on it?

> Why wouldn't he? The bare fact that we can easily check the post, and see any minute details on 'hey, RVS out. Let's prod on the questions and check the numbers' and all that.
Secondly, you're answering with a subtle general answer. Assuming NQT is a spy, it would be hard to prove it in that case and adding a spy to the combination would make it even more confusing.

Sure, Remuthra is being a total helpful newbie due to recent news, and let's assume NQT laid-low first day, and sabotaged the next. Judging by his recent posts, I see much clerical error on that notion of him being scum there. On those points.

Your misuse of Occam's Razor is apparent.

So far (x) states a,b and c are spies. But you're lacking the basis or the context.

Why. How. You jump to 'this also makes sense' as if you've already stated your case, huh. Putting assumptions before questioning isn't a good way of building a case.

PS: I could've just punched birdy51 in the face and he'd have made a mistake and counted me as a downvote. But this is all for comedy. I want to see your reasons TWS. Invoke the Razor, prepare to defend it given it's simplicity.

[Dariush]

So you're saying that all scumtells are derived from the fact that scum can communicate?

Stop twisting my words. What you said only works before D1 team is locked in - i.e. before scum can 'demonstrate' their alignment by voting in odd ways, extracting strange conclusions from night results and so on.

I don't understand what you're trying to say. What it looks like you're saying is this: "RQS only works before D1 team is locked in, because after that scum can mess up opinions by doing all that stuff". Is that right?

If by RQS you mean Random Question Stage, then no. It never works. It only serves as a buffer to prevent the game from stagnating from the beginning. What I said was that there could be pretty much no observable scumtells before D1 lock-in - unless one of the spies is sufficiently stupid or self-opinionated to think he can tell his teammates what to do when two spies are on the team, that is. Spies can try to argue the leader out of an all-rebel team, but the same can be done by a rebel who honestly (even though stupidly, see the point above) disagrees with the team. Spies cannot bandwagon or OMGUS people, unlike in normal games, because those concepts don't apply here. They cannot deceive town by faulty logic regarding night results, because there've been no results. In short, assuming both teams being sane, there really is no difference between the playstyle of spies and rebels at the beginning of W1.

So far, Occam's Razor says that the spy-team is Tiruin, Shinigami and Remuthra. This also makes sense with how the votes have played out, with Tiruin and Shinigami downvoting the first one, and Tiruin downvoting the second one. It was pretty obvious from what people said that the team was going to be passed, so she could have downvoted for us to trust her.

This is probably the stupidest thing said in this game so far, and that's a record considering we're playing with NQT. How can you possibly discard the entirety of two days' discussion and only look at their votes and judge their alignments from that?

Actually, it's more like
Ask for opinions -> See pretty much everyone agree -> Immediately change the team because of it.

That... actually makes sense.

Nerjin:
I don't think that Remuthra is a rebel.  Notice how he's not actually on my mission.  I think that Remuthra was so reluctant to be on the mission because there was already a spy on the team.  Hence a you or NQT scenario.  I have thought more about it though, and have decided that NQT's more likely to be scum then you.  I will explain this later.

So, you think that Remuthra is a spy (because he isn't a rebel), and Nerjin with NQT are probably spies, and I am also probably a spy and I tried to wriggle out of the W2 team and put Remuthra, who is also a spy, in my place. So basically, everyone who isn't you and had anything to do with either mission is probable scum and I tried to solve the problem of there being two spies on a team by pushing the third spy into my place. Makes total sense to mewait no it doesn't.

[griffinpup]

Nerjin:
I don't think that Remuthra is a rebel.  Notice how he's not actually on my mission.  I think that Remuthra was so reluctant to be on the mission because there was already a spy on the team.  Hence a you or NQT scenario.  I have thought more about it though, and have decided that NQT's more likely to be scum then you.  I will explain this later.

So, you think that Remuthra is a spy (because he isn't a rebel), and Nerjin with NQT are probably spies, and I am also probably a spy and I tried to wriggle out of the W2 team and put Remuthra, who is also a spy, in my place. So basically, everyone who isn't you and had anything to do with either mission is probable scum and I tried to solve the problem of there being two spies on a team by pushing the third spy into my place. Makes total sense to mewait no it doesn't.

You misunderstand me.  I don't think that Nerjin with NQT are spies, I think Nerjin or NQT is a spy.  This coincides with my theory involving Remuthra.  There's almost no way you and Remuthra are both spies, but one of the two is likely.  The fact that he's sulking right now doesn't help.

[Shinigami_King]

I am currently really busy so try to not judge me based off of my lurking. I plan to re-read a bunch of this tonight.

[griffinpup]

Lol.  Remuthra just chatted with me in another thread and apparently the best way to win this game is for him to never say anything ever.  Joy.