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[Dariush]

Recall that there must be two scum on this mission for it to fail

It doesn't matter. If this mission succeeds, there will be no reason not to just reuse the same team for the last one, so we must get rid of all spies.

is there anyone else I should take a much closer look at (to add urgency to me doing so) in your opinion?  Or are you just anti-Lenglon?

I am anti-all those people not on my chosen team. I see no way for my preferred composition to change. Granted, I'm still moderately suspicious of Sheep, but he's been behaving fairly towny in my eyes lately, and after everything Lenglon said yesterday I'm beginning to doubt he's Lenglon's and GP's scumbuddy.

[griffinpup]

Well... My quick thoughts on the matter.  I really dislike your team...  My read on Nerjin is fairly town, while my reads on TWS and dariush are scummy. My read on Lenglon is pitiful, especially with this recent power play that had nothing to show for it.

Dariush, do you have any REAL scum tells, or is your whole accusation against me my supposed attempt at communication the only one?  Also, why are you OK up voting a team with TWS on it?

Griffionday:  What do you think about Remuthra's actions?  And can you state concisely why you think Nerjin or I am scum?  A link to your argument would work too, I'm just really busy at the moment and don't have time to find it.

PPE: 
Dariush
If the goal is trying to make the perfect team, and remove all scum, why aren't you pushing for NQT on the team?

[Nerjin]

Just so people know what I'm thinking:

Griffionday - Yeah. You seem pretty town to me. Not the top 3 BUT one of the townest..
Tiruin - Yes. Her work has been very town this entire time.
Daruish - Tenative yes. While I'm still not sure about him we need a fifth man. He fits the bill and seems town enough.
Lenglon - Absolutely not and I'll get to that in a moment.
Sheep - Abslutely not and I'll address that as well.

I think one of them was griffinpup or Nerjin.

Your reasoning being... What? That the numbers said that there'd be two spies on the first team? The first mission succeeded. I don't know why NQT didn't sabotage. But let's look at the number of missions Lenglon's been on that have succeeded: 0. What an interesting number. No mission with her have succeeded.

Added into Remuthra's little fit when NO ONE accused him of anything [running off because of potential failure. Guilty conscience.], Lenglon's little power play, and several other factors that I mentioned are reasons she shouldn't be on the last mission and I'd downvote this team hard. But then you keep going.

Ergo my plan:
I'm kicking out both pup and Nerjin, and keeping NQT out as well.  This should leave one spy max on the team.

Comment and or thoughts?

Yeah. This is stupid. We don't want ANY spies! We have no other choice than for perfect play. We need your reads and reasoning against EVERY player.

Now to address WetSheep's inclusion:

What has he done to make you think he's town? Weak attacks? Tunneling until he couldn't anymore? Nothing I've seen of him has ever indicated a town player. Maybe he is a new player but damnit this isn't a BM so I'm not cutting him any slack on that. Plus he seems to have lurked quite a bit for quite some time to avoid making any more waves. With him on it my thoughts on the team:

Just so people know what I'm thinking:

Griffionday
Tiruin
Daruish
Lenglon
Sheep

Is an absolutely not! I WILL downvote this team if you try to push it. Two spies are NOT something I will allow.

[Lenglon]

Dariush:Granted, I'm still moderately suspicious of Sheep, but he's been behaving fairly towny in my eyes lately, and after everything Lenglon said yesterday I'm beginning to doubt he's Lenglon's and GP's scumbuddy.

I don't understand what you're saying here. please explain.

Your instincts were set off..how? When?

At the very start, right from the second question I ever asked you, about why you're a predator instead of a protector.

Why did you add me to the team anyway?

Because I don't have a lot of past experience to work with, instincts being right 2/2 times is not a signifigant data set, and every single other person in the game seems to think you're town. I figured it was more likely I was wrong than not.

Your instincts, if you're not basing them off anything else, are only swayed by your choice--it is your choice which sets the course of action; everything else is but an influence.

I don't understand this, please explain further.

It's pretty obvious, your suspicions. As well as how or why you should suspect everyone else. Yet, you set aside the other two and then offer a softball towards me.

You need to state things, Lenglon. That'll help more with what you're trying to pull.

I've already presented what little proof and evidence I have. I don't expect to be believed. That doesn't change what I think or feel though, so when asked, like Nerjin asked, I'm going to continue to give the honest answer of "Tiruin seems scummy, and I can't explain why very well." It is what it is.

Nerjin: please explain why you think Tiruin is town in more detail. also, since every single mission thus far has had scum on it, why do you think that

Your reasoning being... What? That the numbers said that there'd be two spies on the first team? The first mission succeeded. I don't know why NQT didn't sabotage. But let's look at the number of missions Lenglon's been on that have succeeded: 0. What an interesting number. No mission with her have succeeded.

has any significance beyond why we should keep you and pup off the mission teams? oh person who has been on two failed mission teams and on a third that succeeded... with confirmed scum on it.
Day, I think the team you proposed is guarenteed to contain at least one scum. you have included every single candidate for the onlooker-scum as well as Dariush (candidate for communicated-with-scum)

Are you trying to just get mission 4 through or are you proposing a mission 5 team the way Dariush is suggesting you are?

[Tiruin]

PFP

Lenglon, I know as much as you that you're trying to hold up a vague setup on something based on emotion here. Now, I'm no stranger to emotional feels or intuitive notices, however when you state your inferences, they're nebulous in nature and truly lack the substance of it being a real piece of intuition.

> It is lacking. Most people, or (at least me) would expound and explain more about those feelings, compare them to quotes portions of others' posts, and then explain why and how those feelings match the notion of scum or town.

You're just hitting me for 'taking aggression up a notch', to poke at how a 'predator' is. I already explained how the differences lie back there.

Tell me, how do you differentiate my attitude from before? Because I deviate from what meta you know of? That I'm not letting any leeway for you people?

I have several styles I can employ in any one game--they're all easily transparent and their root is only from one precept, something which you aren't getting.

At the very start, right from the second question I ever asked you, about why you're a predator instead of a protector.

Expound.

Because I don't have a lot of past experience to work with, instincts being right 2/2 times is not a signifigant data set, and every single other person in the game seems to think you're town. I figured it was more likely I was wrong than not.

Compare with the idea above this statement.

I've already presented what little proof and evidence I have. I don't expect to be believed. That doesn't change what I think or feel though, so when asked, like Nerjin asked, I'm going to continue to give the honest answer of "Tiruin seems scummy, and I can't explain why very well." It is what it is.

No it ain't.

There is always a reason and you know this is just passive poking at it. You already have your basis, but refrain from pushing it further.

What's stopping you?

[birdy51]

Just a heads up, TheWetSheep has alerted me that he will be gone until Saturday. He will not likely be able to respond or post in the meantime.

[Griffionday]

Griffinpup:

Well... My quick thoughts on the matter.  I really dislike your team...  My read on Nerjin is fairly town, while my reads on TWS and dariush are scummy. My read on Lenglon is pitiful, especially with this recent power play that had nothing to show for it.

So you'd prefer me to switch the three I have off team (You, Nerjin, & NQT) for Lenglon, Sheep and Dariush?

Griffionday:  What do you think about Remuthra's actions?  And can you state concisely why you think Nerjin or I am scum?  A link to your argument would work too, I'm just really busy at the moment and don't have time to find it.

Honestly, I don't like them; he acted idiotically and defensive.  Lenglon has done a lot to restore my confidence in the slot though.  My reason for including him (and Sheep) is process of elimination, I don't want NQT for reasons that he's acting like an total scum basket.  Nerjin or you are scum because I don't see NQT as likely to attempt risky communication unless a campaign had already failed.
Lenglon:

Day, I think the team you proposed is guarenteed to contain at least one scum. you have included every single candidate for the onlooker-scum as well as Dariush (candidate for communicated-with-scum)

Are you trying to just get mission 4 through or are you proposing a mission 5 team the way Dariush is suggesting you are?

Agreed.  I'm just trying to get through mission 4, so the people who have cast iron reads on everyone can argue it out for mission 5.


Daruish:

It doesn't matter. If this mission succeeds, there will be no reason not to just reuse the same team for the last one, so we must get rid of all spies.

Dude.  Are you retarded?  WHY THE HELL would you assume that if this team succeeds we should send the same team without retrospectively critiquing every one of them?  Or are you trying to say something different.

I am anti-all those people not on my chosen team. I see no way for my preferred composition to change. Granted, I'm still moderately suspicious of Sheep, but he's been behaving fairly towny in my eyes lately, and after everything Lenglon said yesterday I'm beginning to doubt he's Lenglon's and GP's scumbuddy.

So who do you think I should switch for pup? Nerjin or NQT?

Nerjin:

Your reasoning being... What? That the numbers said that there'd be two spies on the first team? The first mission succeeded. I don't know why NQT didn't sabotage. But let's look at the number of missions Lenglon's been on that have succeeded: 0. What an interesting number. No mission with her have succeeded.

Are you saying that I should consider you pup and NQT as confirmed town because you were on a successful mission?

Added into Remuthra's little fit when NO ONE accused him of anything [running off because of potential failure. Guilty conscience.], Lenglon's little power play, and several other factors that I mentioned are reasons she shouldn't be on the last mission and I'd downvote this team hard. But then you keep going.

Ergo my plan:
I'm kicking out both pup and Nerjin, and keeping NQT out as well.  This should leave one spy max on the team.

Comment and or thoughts?

Yeah. This is stupid. We don't want ANY spies! We have no other choice than for perfect play. We need your reads and reasoning against EVERY player.

I don't have them.  Sorry.

Now to address WetSheep's inclusion:

What has he done to make you think he's town? Weak attacks? Tunneling until he couldn't anymore? Nothing I've seen of him has ever indicated a town player. Maybe he is a new player but damnit this isn't a BM so I'm not cutting him any slack on that. Plus he seems to have lurked quite a bit for quite some time to avoid making any more waves. With him on it my thoughts on the team:

Just so people know what I'm thinking:

Griffionday
Tiruin
Daruish
Lenglon
Sheep

Is an absolutely not! I WILL downvote this team if you try to push it. Two spies are NOT something I will allow.

Last statement is obvious.  To recap, you'd prefer:
Yourself
Tiruin
Griffinpup
Myself
& Daruish

In order of scummiest to least scummiest?

[Nerjin]

Nerjin:

Your reasoning being... What? That the numbers said that there'd be two spies on the first team? The first mission succeeded. I don't know why NQT didn't sabotage. But let's look at the number of missions Lenglon's been on that have succeeded: 0. What an interesting number. No mission with her have succeeded.

Are you saying that I should consider you pup and NQT as confirmed town because you were on a successful mission?

That argument could be put into the Wizard of Oz.

Added into Remuthra's little fit when NO ONE accused him of anything [running off because of potential failure. Guilty conscience.], Lenglon's little power play, and several other factors that I mentioned are reasons she shouldn't be on the last mission and I'd downvote this team hard. But then you keep going.

Ergo my plan:
I'm kicking out both pup and Nerjin, and keeping NQT out as well.  This should leave one spy max on the team.

Comment and or thoughts?

Yeah. This is stupid. We don't want ANY spies! We have no other choice than for perfect play. We need your reads and reasoning against EVERY player.

I don't have them.  Sorry.

Bullshit. I apologize but I will absolutely NOT allow this sort of thing when we're in the last couple of days. Reread the game. Get reads. If you're making a team but don't have a reason for the team then I will absolutely NOT vote up and neither should anyone else. Reread the game. Get reads. Share reads!

Now to address WetSheep's inclusion:

What has he done to make you think he's town? Weak attacks? Tunneling until he couldn't anymore? Nothing I've seen of him has ever indicated a town player. Maybe he is a new player but damnit this isn't a BM so I'm not cutting him any slack on that. Plus he seems to have lurked quite a bit for quite some time to avoid making any more waves. With him on it my thoughts on the team:

Just so people know what I'm thinking:

Griffionday
Tiruin
Daruish
Lenglon
Sheep

Is an absolutely not! I WILL downvote this team if you try to push it. Two spies are NOT something I will allow.

Last statement is obvious.  To recap, you'd prefer:
Yourself
Tiruin
Griffinpup
Myself
& Daruish

In order of scummiest to least scummiest?

Yeah, that'd be my preferred team.

Your entire post seemed to be filled with Strawmen. Also I will downvote every team you propose until you actually have reads on every player. Saying:

Honestly, I don't like [Remuthra's actions]; he acted idiotically and defensive.  Lenglon has done a lot to restore my confidence in the slot though.  My reason for including him (and Sheep) is process of elimination, I don't want NQT for reasons that he's acting like an total scum basket.  Nerjin or you are scum because I don't see NQT as likely to attempt risky communication unless a campaign had already failed.

Is a lot of crap. What has Lenglon done to restore your confidence?

As for your reasons on me and Pup perhaps NQT did his communication to warn Remuthra NOT to sabotage as well. Obviously NQT's town credit was there. He'd been on a successful mission. So why not bolster Remuthra's?

NQT adds Remuthra to the team. Obviously having the same team throws suspicion at me and GriffPup as well as the other two when it fails. HOWEVER it also adds WIFOM to Remuthra. Remember how Remuthra expected WIFOM to come his way so quickly? Obviously he had some form of guilty conscience. "But Nerjin... Why would NQT do that? Why not just add a townie?"

Simple my readless friend. He didn't expect Remuthra to fuck up so badly with the WIFOM bit. The expected outcome was for NQT, Pup, and I to take the blame. Remuthra could have easily rolled through on the whole "Oh well I wasn't the spy! One of those three must have been it!" Since only an idiot would actually point out the WIFOM it'd also let the scum-team know who was an idiot that would pursue WIFOM. An excellent companion for them. That's a bit of a poor explanation but it's another theory to your "NQT was talking to Pup or Nerjin."

Granted you have no reads and you are therefore worthless. GET READS! We're near do or die time and we can't afford you to be pissing about putting multiple spies on the day 4 team. You don't have perfect information. I can accept that. HOWEVER when you've fallen in love with your own theories so much that you ignore actually scum-hunting to doing whatever fits your theory you have become a liability.

"You make a theory to fit the evidence. You do not make the evidence fit the theory."

[Dariush]

Daruish:

Uh, whom are you addressing? I don't see anyone with this name playing. And why are you quoting my posts at him?

[/sarcasm]I'm tired of cretins like you and GP getting my name wrong. Get it right or I'm ignoring all vomit you spew until you do.

Dariush:Granted, I'm still moderately suspicious of Sheep, but he's been behaving fairly towny in my eyes lately, and after everything Lenglon said yesterday I'm beginning to doubt he's Lenglon's and GP's scumbuddy.

I don't understand what you're saying here. please explain.

I'm saying that the way you see-sawed with letting him on the team and throwing him off it, pretty similarly to the three people I've been getting fairly townish reads on (Nerjin, Tiruin and GD) doesn't look like one inexperienced scum covering another, especially considering how your every single lineup contained GP, who I'm 101% sure is your scumbuddy.

[notquitethere]

Alright, I wasn't taking this too seriously before but now I've devised my excel spreadsheet of votes and voting patterns, it's time to do some proper work.

Griffionday, I was just throwing up a smoke screen with my previous comment, I don't upvote or downvote nearly so casually as that. The spy win in the last game was helped by everyone stupidly declaring their voting intentions, and so I was attempting in some small part to disrupt that.

Here's my view:

Griffinpup, Nerjin and Lenglon have all been on both the failed missions, so to reduce the chance of two spies in this mission, we shouldn't take any of them
.

You, Dariush and TheWetSheep haven't been on any failed missions yet, so statistically that makes you the towniest by default and you should all go.

That leaves me and Tiruin to accompany you. Tiruin has especially good rebel-cred, having downvoted more failed missions than anyone else.

Thus:
Griffionday
Dariush
TheWetSheep
Tiruin
notquitethere


Well, I realised, just like last game, my rebel-cred is dreadful. I always manage to put my foot in it and say unintentionally scummy things. Fun fact: I've now played something like 11 mafia or mafia-like games and I've lost every time. I am statistically the worst player on this subforum. In any case, here's some resources to help the rest of the rebels a bit more.

Here's the votes for all missions so far:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Here's a list of three propositions to keep in mind when looking at the results:

1. Spies will not upvote a mission proposal that has no spies on it unless they can be reasonably sure that the mission will be failed by others

2. Spies will always sabotage a mission when not doing so would lose them the game (or when doing so would win them the game)

3. Spies will always include at least one spy on any team they propose unless they can be reasonably sure that the mission won't be accepted (i.e. that they are untrusted)

[notquitethere]

Tiruin
Sorry I'm late with these. Saying I was busy is, though true, not a very good excuse. It's always possible to make time.

In what situation? The one now or after a mission? Because I'll have a lot of ground to work for if I get to pick. >_>

I guess it's irrelevant what you would have chosen then. Who would you pick now?

And I've noted that you aren't still making note of what recently happened, NQT :/

Quite right, I was very lackadaisical. I'm paying attention now the stakes are higher.

EBWOP-- I meant Remuthra as the obvious suspect (I mix up the players in my head just as I always conflate Deathsword with Toaster), but frankly if there was only one scum on the first mission there's good reason to lie low so in my mind Nerjin and Griffpup are almost equally as suspicious.

Yeah? Why @underlined part. Also, how is your reasoning making sense when you prod out Nerjin and Griffinpup? Usually, you also include yourself with a self-conflicting statement that puts everyone equally at suspicion, but then you prod everyone else.

What's up, my leader?

??! I mixed Remuthra and Griffinpup in the post immediately preceding the post you quoted and this was my explanation of who I really meant and why I made that mistake. Could you rephrase the next second question as I wasn't able to divine what you meant. You write with a lot of unstated premises. I do that too sometimes but it's not a good habit. The key to good style is clarity.

NQT kneels down in the ashes of his breakfast, howls up into the rain, crying "NOOOOOO!!!" as the camera slowly pans up and out.

Okay, thinking about this logically-- there was either one, two or three scum on this last mission (my bet is one as there was only one sabotage vote and no way to confer), Griffpup is an obvious suspect but we can't rule out the possibility of scum lying low on the first mission. Tiruin and TheWetSheep get moderate town points for downvoting the mission.

Who do you think you'll pick for the next mission Griffpup, and why?

Why is he any different from Griffinpup, who wasn't even on the team? Why'd you mix up their names?

Why do I and TWS get town points, sir? Could you explain that?

Which 'he' are you referring to here? Remuthra? Remuthra's different from Griffpup because he wasn't on the first mission and the first mission passed. I already explained why I mixed their names up in the post you had just quoted. You and TWS obviously get town points for downvoting a mission which failed as spies have incentive to pass missions with spies on them. Should I make myself clearer in future?

[Griffionday]

Everyone: Sorry, didn't have nearly the time I expected to have today.  Re-read will have to wait till tomorrow roughly this time.

Dariush: Doubly sorry for messing up your name; it was an accident that I'll try to avoid again.

Nerjin: While you're being an ass about it, I did need to hear that, so thank you.

[Nerjin]

Nerjin: While you're being an ass about it, I did need to hear that, so thank you.

I don't like being like this. But we all need a kick in the ass from time to time. I'm pretty sure you're town but you weren't playing as much as we need you too. So... Yeah.

[Griffionday]

Okay.  Actual reads:

Remutha:
First. Three. Posts.  That boy needs therapy. 
Was he just stupid?  Was he just niave?  He seemed to be very convinced that there was a scum on the team he was joining.  But if he's scum, then how can NQT be scum?  He's obviously not bright enough to have caught any hints that NQT could be shoving his way, so it'd be a terrible risk for him to be on the team; and the fact of the matter is that there was only ONE sabotage on the second mission so if he's scum NQT is probably clean.

Truthfully: I still think he was just being an idiot.

Dariush:
Rolled less than two minutes before posting.  Does that seem a little quick to anyone else?
Seems as nervous about being on the team as Remutha, but doesn't press the people who would have thrown him on the team rather jumps on Sheep (who filled in for Ranger) who wasn't one of the group that was throwing him on the second team.
...Spy.
Moving on.

NQT:
Scum due to his inability to handle everyone calling him scum?
I don't like his comments on the success or failure, specifically "We got lucky this first mission" they seem to be... patronizing.  Plus this stuff is rather bad.

Griffinpup:

Griffinpup: What's your general take on the situation at hand if a spy: How would you push for distrust within the town?

Hmm...  I think I would play off of the reads of other people.  Point out people that appear to be trying to communicate and make them appear to be spies.

And I wondered why he was so cagey about calling NQT out on communicating.  Outside of that isolated event, his play has NOT been up to the level I expect of him from playing across from him in the BM.  (Incomplete here due to it being REALLY LATE).

I can't finish my reads now... I'm getting a scummy read from Daruish, Griffinpup and NQT, although I need to look at Lenglon and see if his play actually does clear up Remutha for me.  I will finish them tomorrow or Sunday though.

That being said: I've failed to form a team in the time specified, so I must pass the reins of leader on to Nerjin. 

Use them better than I have.

[birdy51]

That being said: I've failed to form a team in the time specified, so I must pass the reins of leader on to Nerjin. 

Use them better than I have.

Alright. You have heard the man.

Nerjin is your new Leader! The team needs to be ready by Wednesday the 24th at 10PM!