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Author Topic: Arab Spring springs to Turkey  (Read 43986 times)

Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #270 on: June 08, 2013, 03:09:57 pm »

If Erdogan doesn't back down? Almost certain. The government has gone past the point of no return for this just dying out. The funny part is that this would probably already be over if they hadn't cracked down.
The funnier part is that if it does boil over the U.S. probably won't support the rebels because they'll have a real chance of reforming a secular democracy.
I don't know what makes you think that. From both an idealistic and pragmatic standpoint, the US benefits from siding with the protestors and loses from siding with Erdogan, who is both Islamist and trying to move Turkey out of the US-EU power bloc.
The new regime probably will be more anti-USA than Erdoğan. There is a lot of people hating Tayyip for all the ass-licking he did for USA. The majority of protestors also doesn't really like USA much, not to mention that everyone hates capitalism and imperialist countries. "Imperialist" is a label that got stuck on USA for years in Turkey. The youth of this nation is heavily socialist/communist/nationalist, all of these labels clash with the "Imperialist" label.

To be honest (and blunt), nobody gives a shit about EU registration process in Turkey anymore. We all talked about how awesome would it be if we were in EU for years but that news trend is over. Turks do see themselves as Europeans and they pretty much dislike Middle-Easterners because they seem uncultured and barbaric to them but I'm not sure if people want Turkey to be in EU anymore. It's very clear that Turkey is not wanted in EU, and the Turkey is simply looking for alternatives. "There is no friend of Turk, except for Turk" is a Turkish saying that got stuck since the World War I, and there are people who are prejudicial against western countries. There is also a group of people who say that Turkey should return to it's roots and improve relationships and establish partnerships with other Turkic countries.

It's generally agreed even by people who hate AKP, that EU will just slow down the process even if Turkey met the required criteria. So it's mostly considered impossible and not important enough to even try.

These are just my estimations, the only (and most recent, 22 January) poll I looked at had this:
%33,3 Turkey should keep trying for full membership
%25,2 Full membership should be given up and there is no need for improved relations
%19,7 Full membership should be given up but partnerships must be established
%14,6 Not only Turkey should give up on full membership, we should establish an anti-EU structure (I think this means joining an organization that rivals EU or something)
I'm not someone who trusts polls too much though.
Turkish source

Taksim is calm, but incredibly crowded.

Police is attacking protestors in Ankara... after they said that they weren't going to intervene until Monday.
« Last Edit: June 08, 2013, 03:13:17 pm by Leatra »
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Sheb

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #271 on: June 08, 2013, 03:15:32 pm »

I can understand that feeling, but I still think Turkey would benefit greatly from becoming a EU member. And I'm not talking of the money they'd get, but the process to get membership usually is a catalyst to do reform. If Turkey became a member it would have to clear its acts on freedom of the press and the imprisonment of political prisoners, and generally on the sort of authoritarian bullshit Erdogan is pulling.
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #272 on: June 08, 2013, 03:17:21 pm »

I also believe that Turkey would benefit from EU membership, but that's like saying humanity would benefit from the discovery of teleportation.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #273 on: June 08, 2013, 09:38:59 pm »

Thanks for answering questions, Leatra.

Nevermind the EU, who knows if that is still a thing in 10 years. The important thing now is turning Turkey into a real democracy.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #274 on: June 09, 2013, 11:15:40 am »

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10ebbor10

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #275 on: June 09, 2013, 11:47:37 am »

Nevermind the EU, who knows if that is still a thing in 10 years. The important thing now is turning Turkey into a real democracy.
Probably still is. In what form, that's unknown. Strangely, the chances of Turkey's accension to the Union are inverted towards the success of the Union. If the union falls apart towards a loose alliance, no doubt Turkey would fit in. In a tighter knit federation structure,...

Well, Turkey's population is smaller than Germany's, and less than half its GDP. Furthermore, you can be sure the ratios in the European Parliament would be skewed to keep them down.
Still, second largest, and according to demographic predictions, largest by 2020.

And they can't skew the ratios. That would require a change to the European constitution, and well, last time that took more than 10 years to happen. Same reason that they still ship the entire parliament to Strasbourg every year.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #276 on: June 09, 2013, 12:11:34 pm »

And they can't skew the ratios. That would require a change to the European constitution, and well, last time that took more than 10 years to happen.
We don't even have a constitution yet. The EU is a bureacratic monster with huge democracy deficits, it is already totally overextended and needs some massive consolidation to not become irrelevant. There is a lot of stuff that needs to be resolved before even more new members can be accepted. And then there is the Euro-crisis, that could lead to a break-up of the common currency. There are clearly some Turkey-specific problems with EU-membership, but the most important problems are within the current state of the EU itself.
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GlyphGryph

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Sheb

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #278 on: June 09, 2013, 12:29:27 pm »

Sorry, I vaguely remembered the number of MEP being apportioned in a weird way, so that Germany, France and the UK got the same, but apparently it's no longer the case. My mistake.
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #279 on: June 10, 2013, 08:35:07 pm »

I'm gonna be away from Istanbul for around 2-3 months and I won't have a stable internet connection. This might be my last post for weeks.

Erdoğan is going to meet a representative group from the Gezi Park protestors on Wednesday. The group is consisted of 16 people, including artists, teachers, and high school/university students. The known members of the group are Ahmet Mümtaz Taylan, Prof. Betül Tanbay, gazeteci Hayko Bağdat, Mücella Yapıcı. Greenpeace will also be there. There are people who don't find this group "representative" enough. We'll see. I'm not expecting much, Erdoğan is not the tolerant type.

A crazy protestor attacking an armored police truck (with water cannon)... by spraying water with a garden hose.

A closer look to the lawless and policeless free-town of Gezi commune (English Source)

As always, AKP is trying to gather supporters for it's cause. She is shouting "To welcome Mr. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Sunday at 16:00..." They are so desperate, they are even bribing 100 TLs for every supporter for a particular rally and they are taking legal action against absentees. I had pics to prove it but they were deleted.

Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)


A Turkish gameshow host made all of the question answers things related to the protests. On a channel normally in Erdogan's pocket, no less.
Censorship can never stop people who have enough wit to get crap past the radar. At least there are people like this trying even while working under the pressure of propaganda machines.
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Scelly9

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #280 on: June 10, 2013, 08:37:51 pm »

That is a beautiful bus stop.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #281 on: June 10, 2013, 08:48:01 pm »

I'm gonna be away from Istanbul for around 2-3 months and I won't have a stable internet connection. This might be my last post for weeks.
Hope you go somewhere safe. Also hope something positive comes out of this before 2 months are over, but these things tend to take time.

I've heard about Erdogan meeting some representatives, but I've also heard he asked his supporters to protest as well, so it's doubtful what will come out of this.
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #282 on: June 10, 2013, 09:30:20 pm »

http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/archive
This is an archive built with providing evidence against police brutality in mind.

I'm gonna be away from Istanbul for around 2-3 months and I won't have a stable internet connection. This might be my last post for weeks.
Hope you go somewhere safe. Also hope something positive comes out of this before 2 months are over, but these things tend to take time.

I've heard about Erdogan meeting some representatives, but I've also heard he asked his supporters to protest as well, so it's doubtful what will come out of this.
I'm going to Balıkesir. I always go to Balıkesir when it's Summer. I haven't heard any big protests taking place there. Izmir, Ankara and Istanbul was the provinces which had the most bloody protests. Maybe Hatay too, considering the death of 2 protestors from there.

I'm not expecting anything interesting. He might even cancel it at last minute.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #283 on: June 10, 2013, 09:55:37 pm »

http://delilimvar.tumblr.com/archive
This is an archive built with providing evidence against police brutality in mind.
I have actually seen this linked on a news site, german media had a lot of blogs linked. Support rallys continue, especially in Berlin of course.
There are a lot of other stories in the news now, mostly about the floods, but Turkey still gets a lot of coverage.
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #284 on: June 10, 2013, 11:12:06 pm »

A police army in en route to Taksim at this very moment. Watch them live from here.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Gezi looks very calm... and innocent.
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