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Author Topic: Arab Spring springs to Turkey  (Read 43787 times)

Foamybeard

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #150 on: June 03, 2013, 02:43:03 pm »

Nobody gives a shit about your Occupy bull. You can use the old Occupy Wall Street thread for it, okay? That goes for anyone who even for a moment considers replying to either side here.

If this has no effect and just clutters the thread up more, sorry in advance.

He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.
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Owlbread

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #151 on: June 03, 2013, 02:43:52 pm »

He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.

Don't speak to He-Man like that. He's a Master of the Universe and he can do what he wants.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2013, 02:47:13 pm by Owlbread »
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Zangi

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #152 on: June 03, 2013, 02:46:18 pm »

The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.
Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical),  in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.
Considering it... it is not too surprising that Egypt and others were 'blind-sided' by non-secularists. The American approved governments were secular... and it stands to reason that some of them were repressive to Islam to continue being secular/in America's good graces?
Heck, Mubarak of Egypt seemed to be pretty unpopular cause of the fact that he fostered diplomatic relations with Israel...

Of course, Turkey may be something else altogether.  Our B12 liaison Leatra has inferred that people are mad about Turkey becoming too non-secular...
And you folks are pointing out that Erodogan/Turkey has been moderate/secular and getting flack for that.  Perhaps... the fellow may have been trying to please everyone?  Or perhaps not.
I lean toward Leatra's view of the situation at this time, since I don't know jack.
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Foamybeard

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #153 on: June 03, 2013, 03:02:13 pm »

He man, I didn't bring it up. I responded to someone's comment. Don't just give me shit because I'm the only one who isn't indoctrinated to see clearly.

Don't speak to He-Man like that. He's a Master of the Universe and he can do what he wants.

Seriously, I just choked on my dinner when I read that.

+ 9001 respect.

But don't worry, I'll drop it, so that there won't be an argument.
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #154 on: June 03, 2013, 03:26:23 pm »

I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...
One of the reasons some are protesting is that he made it illegal to drink during the night, enforcing Muslim doctrine on the country. You don't touch booze, it's pure freedom.

Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.
Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?

Sheb

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #155 on: June 03, 2013, 03:59:18 pm »

Leantra, did the protesters start emitting demands or something? I've seen the head of the secular opposition (CHP) has called for Erdogan to resign, but that seemed more self-serving than anything else. Moreover, the AKP did win elections, and the CHP lost them. No other party got the legitimacy to take over.

Likewise, if Erdogan calls for new elections, he's likely to win them again and we're back to square one.

And anyway, it seems the protesters are demanding a wider systemic change, with an end to servile media and authoritarian style of governance. Not the kind of things you get by changing whoever is sitting in Başbakanlık Konutu.
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GlyphGryph

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #156 on: June 03, 2013, 04:39:29 pm »

I'm not sure if he WOULD win them again at this point.
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Akura

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #157 on: June 03, 2013, 04:52:17 pm »

How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?
Apparently they're joining in, and the other groups are welcoming them, if some of Leatra's pics are any indication.


I saw CNN's coverage of it today. They sure know how to understate. I'm almost afraid to see Fox News' take on it.
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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #158 on: June 03, 2013, 06:08:50 pm »

How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?
Apparently they're joining in, and the other groups are welcoming them, if some of Leatra's pics are any indication.
Yes, someone asked about that earlier. Leantra said that the Kurds were joining the protestors and the protestors were welcoming them, just like everyone else thats fighting against the Erdogan.
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MetalSlimeHunt

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #159 on: June 03, 2013, 08:39:28 pm »

Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.
Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?
No. Everybody keeps saying this, but it's completely illogical. Erdogan and his people are the fundamentalist party. They're already in power and they're on the more religious end of the plausible leadership in Turkey. Him being ousted all but guarantees a more secular replacement.

Libya was controlled by a more insane but ultimately secular dictator, leaving the potential for an Islamist takeover.
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XXSockXX

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #160 on: June 03, 2013, 09:46:52 pm »

German media are now reporting a second "official" casualty, according to turkish channel NTV and provincial authorities a 22 year old man died after being shot by "an unknown person" during a protest in Hatay province.
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #161 on: June 04, 2013, 12:26:14 am »


German media are now reporting a second "official" casualty, according to turkish channel NTV and provincial authorities a 22 year old man died after being shot by "an unknown person" during a protest in Hatay province.
Yes, an "unknown person" shot him with a firearm... Also another man died in Hatay after getting shot in the head with a gas canister.

Police attacks a passer-by in a relatively calm street. Police asks the people around the leave the area.

You can see people bravely throwing back active gas canisters here

Doctors are trying to help the wounded.

Police burned the trees at Beşiktaş with gas. People called asked help from the firefighters, of course they didn't come. Even with all that gas, people put out the fire themselves.



Police is using social media too. They are spreading lies and impersonating protestors with calls to help like "We need help in Gümüşsuyu" and then they are arresting the people who come to help. Civil police also infiltrates protestor groups.

Protestors are using various digital maps; marking intense areas, first aid points, safe buildings, buildings with wi-fi, and focus protest areas.

Police is using helicopters to spray down gas, this was reported from Beşiktaş.

An interesting duo from the protest area.
Translation
Right:Lots of interesting things are happening.
Left: Delicious, this one was delicious. They made this one delicious
R: Yeah, they made this one delicious. It got us high. It was a strong one.
L: I congratulate you. I congratulate the police department for this tasty cocktail.
R: *waves* which channel is this?
L: It's Show TV. (one of the most famous TV channels in Turkey)
R: Show TV?
L: Yeah, but this one is spelled with a "Ş"
R: Where is it being broadcasted?
L: It's being broadcasted at nowhere. We are just recording it with our friends together. Oh, and I'm from the police. And I'm arresting you now.
R: No, don't say that.
L: Come with me now.

Spoiler: Photos (click to show/hide)

Leandra, don't answer to this if you fear a derail, but about the PKK leader, don't you think some kind of amnesty will be needed if peace is to be negotiated? I can understand this being popular, but it's probably a good thing if it's part of a wider peace proposal.
I would be okay with it if PKK was going to be completely dissolved. If PKK leader Abdullah Öcalan is released, I'm pretty sure he will go back to running things. Also, everyone wants him to be punished for all the soldiers and civilians he killed, and I think it's an understandable demand. There are lots of people who lost their relatives to PKK.

Çarşı sounds like the most awesome football fan club ever.  I kindof want to start supporting their team out of solidarity.

This is a really excellent aggregation of English and Turkish news though, thanks for putting it together.
Thanks. They joined lots of protests before this. They are not really just a football fan club anymore. I respect them and I'm the supporter of their rival football club.

OH SHIT
AK-47 in COP car
Police planning on dressing up as rioters and shooting police
Or maybe rioters planting guns to pretend to be police masquerading as rioters shooting the police
Or maybe mossad imitating rioters...
If a protestor planted a gun there, you can be sure that he would be massacred by the mob for spreading lies.

Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.
I dunno, he seemed like a pretty decent guy just by running over the Wikipedia pages. Defending atheist rights, economic reforms, investing in education, attempted to solving the Cypriotic problems, ...

Difference between talking and acting, apparently.

Quote from: Also got a ton of awards
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I'd have to make a guess, I'd say he's megalomaniacal. Or maniacal.

People like this tend to have more ambition, more sympathy, and are better in inspiring people. However when things go against them, well...
He didn't invest in education. He invested in Islamic school where children are brainwashed and forced to memorize Qur'an passages. He turns normal schools into Islamic schools. He gives academic advantages to people who graduated from Islamic schools.
He didn't defend the rights of atheists. If he did, the mob who murdered 37 Alevis and atheists would be punished for it, not walking free. He is anti-atheist and anti-Alevi.

He is a fanatic, and he needs to be stopped. His Sharia agenda will turn Turkey into a hellhole if not. People are chanting "Fuck Erdoğan" for a reason. We don't want rigged elections anymore. We are talking about someone who said "They are spreading lies on social media and Twitter. [We] should hang these people on the trees there"

The most outspoken critics of Tayyip were Islamists [last I knew]. You know, ousting the extremists in the military so they don't coup back to Islamic Republic status. So this line of conversation is all a bit confusing to me.
Actually it's the complete opposite. The military has traditionally been the strongest advocate of secularism in Turkey. They are mostly Kemalists, followers of Mustafa Kemal Atatürk, who founded modern Turkey and modelled it after western states, especially France. In the past, when the military believed the government strayed away from kemalist values, they staged coups. Not to promote Islamism, but secularism.
While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.

Just as a note, but with 327 out of 550 seats, the AKP has a majority in parliament.
Also interesting of note, of all parties, the AKP has the most female parliament members (Percentage and total)
Which makes their relative paucity of genuine support all the more concerning, I would think. 39%/49% of the vote (local/national) hardly seems like it should entail getting 60% of the government. And this is with the government essentially buying and coercing votes.

Not that this particular quirk, where groups end up running countries despite the majority of the population being opposed to them, is somehow limited to Turkey. The vote-buying is obviously a bit more of a concern.
This is actually pretty normal in countries without a 2 party system (I think Turkey has over 70) and not necessarily something to be concerned about. You very rarely get governments with absolute majority. Vote-buying, if it exists, is something else.
This is true. Army never wanted fundamental Islam here. That's why Erdoğan is throwing lots of generals into prisons.

I don't know much about USA politics but there are lots of political parties here. There are strong parties representing the voice of nationalists, Islamists, communists, kemalists, Kurds, etc. The most popular third party got %13 of the votes. Also AKP always resorts to vote-buying in every election.

How are the Kurds responding to the protests, out of curiosity?
They are joining the protests. Some are making PKK propaganda, some are genuinely believing in the cause.

I have to leave for school. I have 2 exams today. I'll keep posting and responding after I come back.
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Owlbread

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #162 on: June 04, 2013, 05:59:11 am »

Do Mr. Abdullah Gul's messages have any weight to them? He's an Islamist just like Mr. Erdogan, isn't he?
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Leatra

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #163 on: June 04, 2013, 10:11:26 am »

Just replying, I'll post information next time.

Do Mr. Abdullah Gul's messages have any weight to them? He's an Islamist just like Mr. Erdogan, isn't he?
He is an Islamist indeed but he is more subtle when it comes to it I suppose. It seems like he is now playing the good cop in this scenario. For a puppet who just signs the papers Erdoğan throws at him, he is acting bravely. Please don't fall for the mistake of believing that he is neutral. Still, I don't think his relations with Erdoğan isn't as good as it used to be. I believe Gül's attitude is either "Tayyip, let's ease up on the dictator throttle a bit bro. This is way too much" or "Tayyip, I'm gonna be the good cop and see if they fall for it. Wanna make a bet?"

While Turkey has a very secular constitution, huge parts of the population are still religious. Initially, when AKP was formed, it was welcomed as a democratic way to balance strong secularism and moderate Islam. However since they are the strongest party, they have become more and more conservative and are now pushing the country too much into a religious direction for the taste of many.

Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels? I swear I've heard all sorts of things reported from Turkey about anti-Erdogan sentiment coming more from the fringe right than anywhere else. As always, could easily be explained by the filter of Turkish media applying to outside reporting.

Turkey may not be a police state, but it's definitely a repressive secular government, no matter who heads it at which time. Just got to look back a decade or two to see the precedent laid before them. Treatment of dissenters has always been heavy handed and misguided in long-term thinking. A bit alarming considering all the NATO arms and money they get.

Just hope Erdogan capitulates. He can still be rich and powerful even without his post, and he knows it. Wouldn't be a bad time to restore some faith in their democratic government, either. Dude's been around too long and he shouldn't be spreading gasoline on an already dry tinderbundle. Turkey is still a democracy but it wouldn't be too hard to see a street protest taken over by the extreme elements and go the way of Egypt.

Edit:
I have a proposition: Turkish people are dissatisfied with their government, Greek people are dissatisfied with their government. Say fuck it, combine nations, and see if the resulting parliament will be more or less corrupt than before. I'd hedge bets that it'd be marginally better. The nationalist parties can join forces too, gee, everyone will be happy.

People were protesting the support for Syrian rebels after some rebels bombed the shit out of Reyhanlı and got around 150 people killed. Erdoğan tried to make it look like it was Essad doing it. It was not only Islamists who were protesting.

Maybe Turkey seems secular when compared to Middle East but non-Muslims are still being oppressed. I know lots of people keeping their true beliefs secret. It's not enough.

I know you weren't serious but combining Greece and Turkey seems like a great "What If?" scenario to write a book on. I love Greek people and I know many people here who loves them but I'm sure racist Turks and racist Greeks would turn the streets into red in a matter of hours.

Wasn't it just last week that Islamists were protesting Turkey's [Erdogan's] support of the Syrian rebels?
Erdogan may be fundamentalist, he's not islamist in a radical way, there are people much more islamist than he is, who think he is too moderate.
He is clever. He knows the Turkish people won't put up with his Sharia bullshit. But I assure you, he is "Islamizing" the country slowly. For example, he can't outlaw alcohol outright, so he keeps increasing the taxes and puts up more harsh laws. More than %50 of the money we pay for beer goes to government and he will be killing this income if he puts harsher laws.

The extremists in Egypt [a tourist destination, ally of US, major beneficiary of US funds] were ostracized and found an umbrella group many Americans hadn't cared about until the revolution where they came out of the shadows with their rural support. Now we have a Sharia Law constitution in draft.
Just because Americans don't care or know about something doesn't mean it does not exist (no offense intended). If you live in Europe (especially in a country with immigrants from the region) and follow the news you get a much clearer picture. There are many huge differences between Turkey and Egypt, Turkey has it's own particular set of problems, but there is no such thing as a strong islamist movement (as in Sharia-Law-type-radical),  in Turkey. Actually I would almost compare it to the situation in the US, where "Middle America" is strongly religious whereas the coasts (in Turkey the urban centers) are much less so.
Considering it... it is not too surprising that Egypt and others were 'blind-sided' by non-secularists. The American approved governments were secular... and it stands to reason that some of them were repressive to Islam to continue being secular/in America's good graces?
Heck, Mubarak of Egypt seemed to be pretty unpopular cause of the fact that he fostered diplomatic relations with Israel...

Of course, Turkey may be something else altogether.  Our B12 liaison Leatra has inferred that people are mad about Turkey becoming too non-secular...
And you folks are pointing out that Erodogan/Turkey has been moderate/secular and getting flack for that.  Perhaps... the fellow may have been trying to please everyone?  Or perhaps not.
I lean toward Leatra's view of the situation at this time, since I don't know jack.
"I am your Liaison from the Bay 12!"

The chances of Erdoğan being the son of Satan is higher than the chances of him being a moderate/secularist. People, please don't compare Turkey to Middle East just because this is a Muslim country. Compare Turkey to the political history of itself. You can see Erdoğan turning normal schools into Islamic schools. The dude is building mosques and erecting long minarets everywhere. I don't think he is just compensating for something.

But really, his politics don't matter anymore. He can start turning Turkey into an atheistic country and punishing the mosque-goers and I wouldn't give a rat's ass. He is corrupt. He is the most corrupted politician I have ever saw in Turkey. That's why people want him gone. There are Islamists protesting him now too.

Leantra, did the protesters start emitting demands or something? I've seen the head of the secular opposition (CHP) has called for Erdogan to resign, but that seemed more self-serving than anything else. Moreover, the AKP did win elections, and the CHP lost them. No other party got the legitimacy to take over.

Likewise, if Erdogan calls for new elections, he's likely to win them again and we're back to square one.

And anyway, it seems the protesters are demanding a wider systemic change, with an end to servile media and authoritarian style of governance. Not the kind of things you get by changing whoever is sitting in Başbakanlık Konutu.
There are no statements or demands right now. Everyone agrees that AKP has to resign and the most popular chant seems to be "AKP, RESIGN!". I have seen people going as far as to demanding Erdoğan's head. I think the majority wants elections with the exclusion of AKP but like I said, no stated demands or anything like that.

If Erdoğan called for new elections, he would probably lose but he would still have a say about what's going on. There is a chance that he might win because I'm expecting anything from him at this point. Rigged elections is nothing new to us and vote-buying tendencies of AKP is known by everyone. Anyway, people don't just want earlier elections, they want AKP to cease existing and dissolve into nothingness.

Leatra cancels collect information: fell asleep from exhaustion

Taksim is very crowded right now.
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10ebbor10

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Re: Arab Spring springs to Turkey
« Reply #164 on: June 04, 2013, 10:18:07 am »

Erdogan is a fanatic, so he's not likely to compromise. If he were a rational actor things wouldn't have gotten to this point. I'll call it now, this is only going to end with him being ousted.
Yet will his ousting just result in a more fundamentalist party being put into power such as in Libya?
No. Everybody keeps saying this, but it's completely illogical. Erdogan and his people are the fundamentalist party. They're already in power and they're on the more religious end of the plausible leadership in Turkey. Him being ousted all but guarantees a more secular replacement.

Libya was controlled by a more insane but ultimately secular dictator, leaving the potential for an Islamist takeover.
Well, I wouldn't call the AKP a fundamentalist party. Ultimately, it's got more similarities to the European Catholitical-Democratic parties at the end of the 19the century.
Don't simplify this to a black and white fundamentalist-secularist issue. That detracts from the real problems, and serves no good purpose.

On a side note, the AKP must have a really good PR department. Because well, it's hard to find negative commentary of it's actions (at least, those predating the riots).
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