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[Sheb]

So Breivik calling himself a Christian crusaders doesn't make him a christian terrorism? What do you need to do to register as a Christian terrorist if committing terror acts motivated by your Christian beliefs aren't enough?

Now, Islamist terrorists aren't mainstream in any sense of the world either. You can't use them as an exemple of Islam's flaws but then dismiss any Christian extremists as fringe lunatics.

As for sheer numbers... Well, most Muslims countries are poor, unstable dictatorships. If you control for conditions, by taking Muslims that live in Europe, they account for a negligible percentage of terrorist acts. (Again, from Europol's terrorism surveys:)

[Max White]

And honestly, I'm not sure most Americans know anything about it besides "Designated Day of Celebratory Boozing and Light Assault on People Not Wearing Green."

Isn't it meant to be for the day St Patrick ran the snakes out of Ireland? Or is that just what my parents told me to avoid talking about some bloodshed?

Either way it involved lots of drinking and being better than the English at sport. Aussie and Irish get along great!

I very well understand what modern Islam is.
I have a friend that fought against Russia in Chechnya and witnessed how the resistance went from secularized nationalism to merciless religious jihad.

I have a female friend who made a huge mistake: married a Turkish man (Turkey is the most secularized Muslim country you can find) and told me about how she was treated in Turkey

I have one more friend who worked in United Arab Emirates for several years

Besides what's wrong with television and Internet as sources of information if you don't turn your brain off?

Oh I see, you have anecdotal evidence and because some bad things happened to some people you know suddenly you know it all.
If things are going badly in the middle east right now, we can just blame their faith! There is no way those human rights issues are because of socioeconomic factors that aren't relevant in developed countries.

So Breivik calling himself a Christian crusaders doesn't make him a christian terrorism? What do you need to do to register as a Christian terrorist if committing terror acts motivated by your Christian beliefs aren't enough?

I'm pretty sure he is no true Scotsman Terrorist.

[LordSlowpoke]

As for sheer numbers... Well, most Muslims countries are poor, unstable dictatorships. If you control for conditions, by taking Muslims that live in Europe, they account for a negligible percentage of terrorist acts. (Again, from Europol's terrorism surveys:)

Please make sure you're taking into account that what would pass for hate speech when spoken by a non-Muslim in Europe would be attributed to terrorism when spoken by a Muslim, and that scrutiny is a great deal harsher when it comes to Muslims leading to a lot of false positives but with these come plots which are thwarted before anyone hears of them. Your table only records successful terrorist attacks, doesn't it?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So Breivik calling himself a Christian crusaders doesn't make him a christian terrorism? 

Quote when he called himself a Christian crusader and that he did what he did because he served God? Did you read anything from his manifest?
His agenda is mostly anti-Marxism...

Now, Islamist terrorists aren't mainstream in any sense of the world either.

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pages/Opinion-Polls.htm


Source of the stats?  Six attacks from Islamists in 2012? Who made all the others?  Don't tell me that it's freedom fighters unrelated to Islam
Edit: Missed that it's europe only... Kinda interested in the list of 219 terrorist attacks in Europe....

[Sheb]

Feel free to look it up on Europol's website. Most of them are from separatists (ETA, Corsican) and far-left, with a spattering of far-right attacks.

It includes all attacks, whether successful, foiled or failed. Not shown in the table but it's in the reports is the number of terrorism-related arrest, of which muslims account for around 30%. That's all the guys that said stuff that wouldn't be considered terrorism coming from a white guy.

[Leafsnail]

Also, Nazi party promoted many quite good things during it's rule: Family values, high work ethics and so on

[Owlbread]

Spoiler: Made the trains run on time. (click to show/hide)

[Ukrainian Ranger]

To add to the above: Imagine a poll in 1938 Germany with a question like: " How do you think, should we put all Jews in camps and kill them all in an organized fashion? " I doubt that even 10% of Germans would say yes even after years of dedicated antisemitic propaganda.  And yet it's what they did, it was a logical conclusion of Nazy ideology... Same stuff with Muslims, Majority of them may not approve extreme violence, but their views justify it.

Yep, Islam has many good qualities... but Nazism and Communism have quite a lot of good stuff too!


You may tolerate a religion that views women as inferior beings that should be locked. I will not.

You may tolerate a religion that approves killing women for "immoral*" behavior. I will not

You may  tolerate a religion that approves rapes of ten year olds because that is "lawful marriage". I will not

You may tolerate a religion that allows rapes of "enemy women". I will not

You may tolerate a religion that uses terror as a method of conversion. I will not

You may tolerate a religion that despises all other beliefs. I will not


*Like getting raped and being unable to prove that ( the only way to prove rape under Sharia law is to have four male witnesses of the rape, So.... )

[Vector]

I think you need to look more at what actually happens in the US, pal, before you go on and on about our lack of misogyny.

Also, there's a big difference between Hitler shitting out a revenge portfolio while in jail and a holy book that's been around for more than a thousand years.  One absorbs layers of interpretations.  One doesn't.

[Willfor]

I've mostly kept myself out of this for one reason: People are calling Islam a culture. I can't take anyone who says that seriously. Especially given the broad range and history the religion has had.

Religions are not cultures, though they can be a part of a culture. It's a tie between many cultures. To broadly paint all of them as the same is like trying to tell someone that every western nation is Christian, and that's the only culture we have. It's a lie, plain and simple, and doesn't even work on the generalization level.

[GlyphGryph]

I think you seem to be conflating Islam with Islamism. It's not, any more than Christianity is fundamentalism.

Fundamentalist Christian terrorists exist and kill people in the US. The Army of God has made that obvious. The KKK had widespread popular and government support for an unfortunately large chunk of US history. An unfortunately large part of Uganda, including the current government, is basic Christian Zealots versus Christian Zealots, who think the proper Christian way to do things is to kill everyone who disagrees with them for Jesus. Every one of your arguments applies just as strongly to Christianity, in every way except that Christianity is now more common in the much more peaceful "West" than in war torn places like North Africa, the Middle East, and parts of Asia.

Look at your list here: (minus the first one which I don't understand the meaning of - incomplete sentence?)
You may tolerate a religion that approves killing women for "immoral*" behavior. I will not
You may  tolerate a religion that approves rapes of ten year olds because that is "lawful marriage". I will not
You may tolerate a religion that allows rapes of "enemy women". I will not
You may tolerate a religion that uses terror as a method of conversion. I will not
You may tolerate a religion that despises all other beliefs. I will not

Every one of these (and worse) applies to Christianity as well. Maybe not the breed of Christianity that is popular in your part of the world - but I doubt the breed of Islam in your part of the world condones any of these either. Look at the parts of the world that deal with the same sorts of problems, like in various parts of Africa, and the Christian immorality is almost exactly the same.

Because Religions are not Cultures. Cultures shape religion, and religion shapes culture, but they are not the same thing.

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Also, there's a big difference between Hitler shitting out a revenge portfolio while in jail and a holy book that's been around for more than a thousand years.  One absorbs layers of interpretations.  One doesn't.

(I'm not in this debate but I can't let this go unchallenged.)

There really isn't. Something being a "holy book" or not is dependent upon the beliefs and thoughts of the reader. Neo-Nazis who think Hitler was inspired by God to do his will very well might see Mein Kampf as a holy text.

As for the interpretations, everybody interprets what they read. It is not even optional to interpret things through your own perspective. I could very well (and mostly do) interpret the Qur'an as Muhammad's revenge portfolio, written out of his anger at being thrown out of Mecca.

Simply put, the age of a text does nothing whatsoever to make it more valid.

[DWC]

I've mostly kept myself out of this for one reason: People are calling Islam a culture. I can't take anyone who says that seriously. Especially given the broad range and history the religion has had.

Religions are not cultures, though they can be a part of a culture. It's a tie between many cultures. To broadly paint all of them as the same is like trying to tell someone that every western nation is Christian, and that's the only culture we have. It's a lie, plain and simple, and doesn't even work on the generalization level.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture

Adhering to the tenets of a religion is going to tie in with culture, they are not interchangeable but they are intertwined. To try to describe the culture of a Muslim majority nation without mentioning Islam would be absurd.

[Willfor]

Well then, I guess I can completely conflate two immigrants into one generalization: One from Lebanon and one from Bangladesh. Thanks DWC!

(There could be sarcasm lurking in this post...)

I'm not saying that you can't mention it, but to banner ALL PEOPLE inside Islam as having THE SAME CULTURE (this is the ONLY point that I am addressing, one that has come up in this thread) is foolish. You cannot in good faith say "Islamic immigrants" when between 1/5th and 1/4th of the world's population fit under the banner.

[Owlbread]

Or, more radically, one from Lebanon, one from Bosnia, one from Afghanistan, one from Ningxia, one from Zanzibar and one from Indonesia.