Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Ukrainian Ranger]

It is so easy to be tolerant of people you agree with. So easy to endorse freedom of speech when you support what is being said. So easy to promote multiculturalism when you need to defend your own culture. So easy to love secularism when it is defending your church.

And yet for some people these ideals turn to shit at the first real test.

It's so easy to be tolerant, it's hard to fight in self protection.
IMO, The whole European tolerance is a good name for cowardice and indifference

If my body will start being tolerant to hostile bacterias, I'll get into a serious trouble. Note that my body is tolerant to non-hostile bacterias.

[Max White]

Do you mean to imply that people of different cultures to your own are comparable to "hostile bacterias"^{1 2}

Also, your body is intolerant of various inert bacteria and kills them in a 'just in case' type of defense.
¹The plural of bacteria is bacteria. Incorrect gramma does not invalidate anything you say, I just thought you might like to know.
²I think pathogens is the phrase you are looking for. Trust me, it works better for what you are trying to say.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Well, analogy is not perfect, because people of foreign cultures\ideologies are parts of their own "multicellular organisms" and nations can die while some of the "cells" will continue living in a new (or mutated) "body".
Saying that I do think that people of hostile cultures\ideologies inside the country are as dangerous as pathogens and tolerating them is a way to the self-destruction of a nation

I very well understand that individualists have no reasons to care about the nation, but you are talking with a nationalist here

[Max White]

... Yes, apparently so.

So you see people from different cultural backgrounds to that which you identify as your 'national culture' as harmful?

[scriver]

You see, it's funny you made that metaphor, because when the human body goes all scared of and panicky from foreign objects we call it allergic reactions.

Yep, Muslim terrorists act in self preservation. But No, it's not misjudged at all. Country can be either liberal-democratic or Islamic. You can't mix human rights and sharia laws. Only one can exist in the same place. Muslims understand that very well and fight with all methods aviable

Neither is Christian law, yet my liberal democratic country is full of them. So what is your point?

[Ukrainian Ranger]

So you see people from different cultural backgrounds to that which you identify as your 'national culture' as harmful?

Nope. In most cases people of different cultures benefit a country by providing new ideas and fresh blood

Every national culture is benefited by neighbors\immigrants, Isolation leads to stagnation and degradation

But there are exceptions of harmful stuff: Nazism, Communism, Islam and many other harmful ideologies\cultures (IMO national culture is nothing but a bunch of ideals)

You see, it's funny you made that metaphor, because when the human body goes all scared of and panicky from foreign objects we call it allergic reactions.

You are very right here! Overdoing nationalism leads to a veeeery nasty stuff,  Germans demonstrated that very well.
Even more, Sometimes our immune system can attack our own organs without any reason. That doesn't mean that it would be better to live without immune system

Neither is Christian law, yet my liberal democratic country is full of them. So what is your point?

Modern mainstream Christianity isn't comparable to modern mainstream Islam. Have you heard about Christians advocating killing people for some bad movie about Jesus?  Or for some anti-Christian caricatures?  Or for burning of Bibles?
Besides I doubt that criminal code of your country has something like stoning women for adultery

[Max White]

I don't think you understand what modern Islam is.
You see those guys on tv blowing shit up? That isn't it. The local mosque that you never hear about because all they ever do is go there to pray every now and then and don't disturb the peace? That is it.

Although if you want to look at very recent catholic secs, the Westboro Baptist Church is a good start. Shall we judge all modern Christianity from their actions?

[Sheb]

Actually, when Hàr first posted, we had a bunch of links of Christian terrorism. The US Army of God, the Lord Resistance Army, Breivik...

[scriver]

Neither is Christian law, yet my liberal democratic country is full of them. So what is your point?

Modern mainstream Christianity isn't comparable to modern mainstream Islam. Have you heard about Christians advocating killing people for some bad movie about Jesus?  Or for some anti-Christian caricatures?  Or for burning of Bibles?

Ecce Homo. A Swedish photo exhibition combining Jesus and gay culture. The artist was received death threats, showings were continually threatened with bombings, and in Belgrade (the only eastern European country that showed it) it had to be guarded by riot police.

The Last Temptation of Christ. Christians firebombed a cinema in Paris showing it.

And that's just the famous examples from the top of my mind, and keeping it only to Christians demanding peoples deaths because of media and not even going into the cases of American Christians murdering and bombing doctors and abortion centers because of their "morals", or Breivik, and stuff like that.

Anyway, in Europe it may not be common to kill people for blasphemy against Christianity, but it sure as hell isn't uncommon for it to be criminal to do so, especially not in eastern Europe. Just look at Pussy Riot.

Besides I doubt that criminal code of your country has something like stoning women for adultery

It doesn't. But it did for a long time use similar, torturous punishment for women up until the point where we decided to keep Christianity out of our legal system.

[LordSlowpoke]

And that's just the famous examples from the top of my mind, and keeping it only to Christians demanding peoples deaths because of media and not even going into the cases of American Christians murdering and bombing doctors and abortion centers because of their "morals", or Breivik, and stuff like that.

Anyway, in Europe it may not be common to kill people for blasphemy against Christianity, but it sure as hell isn't uncommon for it to be criminal to do so, especially not in eastern Europe. Just look at Pussy Riot.

whoa whoa WHOA

Right then! Pussy Riot is being persecuted because it's in opposition to the government, which has effectively made the local Orthodox church into its vassal. They have nothing against religion (other than the fact that Orthodoxy is a literal patriarchy, but that's a completely different tangent) and the attacks are against Putin's interpretation of democracy than various church officials. Let us please not misattribute these things because it only leads to marginalizing the goals of legitimate groups.

I'm not touching the Breivik part with a remotely controlled stick outside the blast radius of a decently sized nuke. I do not agree with you saying his attacks were motivated by him being Christian, however, or any part of Christian ideology outside the loose association with Knights Templar, and let it stay this way.

[scriver]

And that's just the famous examples from the top of my mind, and keeping it only to Christians demanding peoples deaths because of media and not even going into the cases of American Christians murdering and bombing doctors and abortion centers because of their "morals", or Breivik, and stuff like that.

Anyway, in Europe it may not be common to kill people for blasphemy against Christianity, but it sure as hell isn't uncommon for it to be criminal to do so, especially not in eastern Europe. Just look at Pussy Riot.

whoa whoa WHOA

Right then! Pussy Riot is being persecuted because it's in opposition to the government, which has effectively made the local Orthodox church into its vassal. They have nothing against religion (other than the fact that Orthodoxy is a literal patriarchy, but that's a completely different tangent) and the attacks are against Putin's interpretation of democracy than various church officials. Let us please not misattribute these things because it only leads to marginalizing the goals of legitimate groups.

The reason for their protest is irrelevant - they were deemed guilty of "premeditated hooliganism performed by an organized group of people motivated by religious hatred or hostility" as if the attack was on the church. Their arrest and prosecution was very much driven by the Orthodox Church, and measures has since been taken to outlaw blasphemy against the Orthodox Church as a whole. The whole thing is very much connected to religions (in this case Christianity) not being able to take criticism without screaming for blood, and that is why it was relevant to the other examples.


I'm not touching the Breivik part with a remotely controlled stick outside the blast radius of a decently sized nuke. I do not agree with you saying his attacks were motivated by him being Christian, however, or any part of Christian ideology outside the loose association with Knights Templar, and let it stay this way.

Breivik saw himself as a Christian Warrior fighting against the Muslim Threat to his nation. To deny this is like denying that the people high-jacking planes on 9/11 saw themselves as Muslim Warriors.

[Sheb]

Just a though, but I really like how an American can celebrate St Patrick's day and Cinquo de Mayo even if he doesn't have a drop of Mexican or Irish blood. How many non-Muslim Europeans celebrate the Aïd? We're letting a lot of party occasions goes there people!

[MetalSlimeHunt]

Not even the Mexicans in my area celebrate Cinquo de Mayo.

[Frumple]

Saint patties, well... frankly, there's quite a bit of the American population with some degree of Irish blood (bit more than 1 in 10 claim it, and you better believe the number that don't but have some anyway is higher). They invited friends, it eventually spread out to a more generalized thing.

And honestly, I'm not sure most Americans know anything about it besides "Designated Day of Celebratory Boozing and Light Assault on People Not Wearing Green."

... I know I don't. Hear yeh about missing more excuses to take a day off work/school, though.

[Ukrainian Ranger]

Actually, when Hàr first posted, we had a bunch of links of Christian terrorism. The US Army of God, the Lord Resistance Army, Breivik...

1) Numbers aren't comparable, everyday someone in the world is killed by Muslim terrorists
2) Breivik is not a Christan terrorist, he never screamed stuff like "In the name of God I kill nonbelievers " or " For the Jesus!"  The fact that he is a Christian and a Terrorist doesn't make him a Christian terrorist. Even the fact that he calls himself a crusader here and there, doesn't make him Christan terrorist

Ecce Homo. A Swedish photo exhibition combining Jesus and gay culture. The artist was received death threats, showings were continually threatened with bombings, and in Belgrade (the only eastern European country that showed it) it had to be guarded by riot police.

The Last Temptation of Christ. Christians firebombed a cinema in Paris showing it.

Note my word mainstream... Yep,  Christian fanatics do exist, but they have no support from millions of people, major churches or official governments.

If you talk about Orthodox Christianity... Then yes, I must admit that Russian KGB-church goes in the very same direction as Islam, if the trend will continue we may get Orthodox terrorist just in decades.

As for Pussy Riot, that's politics..., they are imprisoned not because they attacked the church, but because they attacked Putin.

I don't think you understand what modern Islam is.

I very well understand what modern Islam is.
I have a friend that fought against Russia in Chechnya and witnessed how the resistance went from secularized nationalism to merciless religious jihad.

I have a female friend who made a huge mistake: married a Turkish man (Turkey is the most secularized Muslim country you can find) and told me about how she was treated in Turkey

I have one more friend who worked in United Arab Emirates for several years

Besides what's wrong with television and Internet as sources of information if you don't turn your brain off?