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[Raphite1]

*entitled rage about goats or something*

It's Toady's and Threetoe's hobby that they happen to let other people share. If you want a game, you can find plenty here:
http://www.ea.com/

[CognitiveDissonance]

Although to Toady's defense, we don't know how long this bug has been in, because it only now got noticed. Maybe it's been years, maybe it's been in since the last update.

Although I guess that's easy to check, just DL older versions and use DFhack in 'em to check maxblood on kids.

I have been reflecting on this, and I don't believe this affected the time period when people set up merpeople farms.

[VerdantSF]

This is definitely NOT something that don't you want to hear about when your a newb who finally has a decent fortress, which happens to have have about 30 children/babies running around. Now I'm left with the bleak prospect of running a eugenics program to weed out the the dwarf Dwarfs in order to increase my survivability.

My fort is almost 40 years old, and even with tiny dwarves in the military, it's been fine.  I don't use danger rooms and traps are rare.  The entrance to my fortress is almost always open so that diplomats and traders can immediately start to path, instead of waiting around for the inevitable ambush.  Despite this, here's how my dwarves have fared over the years:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

10 deaths for 762 total kills isn't too shabby.  Edem II, formerly the unluckiest hammerdwarf, now wields a pick.  It is THE best weapon for tiny dwarves, since it only has 1 attack, rather than the alternative pommel strikes, shaft bashes, and flat of the blade slaps of the other edged/piercing weapons.  Every single hit of his these days is a serious wound and combined with his dodge and shield skills, he doesn't get hit in combat.  For flavor reasons, Edem II is currently my only pick-wielder, but if you're worried about military efficacy, just turn all your tiny terrors into goblinite miners .

I have been reflecting on this, and I don't believe this affected the time period when people set up merpeople farms.

You're probably right.  People were going over butchering results with a fine-toothed comb back then.

[anzelm]

It seems, we can compensate for dwarf dwarf attack weakness via avoiding blunt weapons. Armor, shield and dodging/parrying should in theory compensate for the defense weakness (as I understand it, not being hit in the first place is the main defensive strategy). What about the effect this potentially has on dwarven justice? If relative size difference between combatants is so important to blunt damage (and punching is blunt damage), then choosing the correct dwarf for law enforcement could decide the fate of your fort.

Also, paint your elite wrestler dwarf dwarves (is this becoming a meme?) blue with dimple dye. +10 points if you rename the commander 'Rob Anybody'.

[Witty]

Wow, This is pretty bad. No wonder my war dog army sucked so much at everything. I hope this becomes #1 on the bug fixing list once the next release is pushed out, because jeeez.

I recall a similar story somewhere where the old versions of DF had massive lag from dwarven eyelashes growing too long. Maybe it's time to start giving us a little more info on individual creatures and their traits if just to prevent stuff like this from happening again.

[slothen]

My fort is almost 40 years old,
10 deaths for 762 total kills isn't too shabby.

Does that include accidents?  my [INVADERS:NO] fort is only 7-8 years old and i've still had like 3 dozen deaths.  Although I did have invaders on for a few seasons by accident and a few ambushes that I wasn't too worried about took a few lives.

[fricy]

Spoiler: !!USELESS RANT!! (click to show/hide)

I know it's not a place for this rant, but I'm quite fed up with people calling this game alpha. I know what it says in the game, I know Toady calls it alpha, but that does not make this game alpha. For all I care, that just an excuse for not fixing bugs.

DF 34.11 is at worst at RC stage with more features planned in later releases. The next version when it comes out WILL be a pre-alpha release, with bug-fixing alpha and beta releases following it, and finally another release candidate that we will be happily using for another year. If a software product is released for the public, that's at worst called a Release Candidate. No need to reinvent the wheel. And since Toady wants to make a living from developing this game, I find this attitude pretentious. I'd be better if he just said that he hates fixing bugs, period. But it's still less pretentious then the fan-boys who are parrotting "alpha, alpha, alpha"!

You don't see Adobe calling Photoshop CS1 an alpha stage, even though they had additional features in mind at the time of the release. Every software development works like this: You release a version, and the next version will have new features. OS X, Linux, Word, WOW, I could go on an on. Heck, even Google says that all their products are in permanent beta, but you don't see them using it as an excuse for not fixing things because developing new things is more exciting.

Now back on topic: It went unnoticed for unknown time, because we don't know squat about the inner workings of the software. There are always quirks here and there, but THERE'S NO WAY to know what is going on, and you can always blame it on the RNG. Granted, that's part of the FUN. You don't know how many parts of the world this bug affects, and what it doesn't, and you won't be able to tell, because nobody except Toady knows. I have a feeling, that even he will have problem understanding the scope of this. What we do know is that blunt attacks and butchering is borked. How many other systems depend on size calculations? You can guess... And this is only one bug: how many other threads are started every week with "why is this happening?" or "please fix this!" Not to mention the all-time-suggestion toplist with graphics support, UI fix, multithreading, plus the modders need to do memory hacks and disassembly, and they are doing their impressing work like a person sent into an dark room blindfolded. I'm sincerely surprised that there is any modding at all.

So I'm with Gargomaxthalus: Toady's one man show IS impressive as hell, the game IS awesome, but there is only so much he can do in his time. That is reality.

[Witty]

snip

You're probably right on most accounts, but the fact still stands that DF is really the only game of its caliber. And I do not see anyone outdoing DF in terms of depth anytime soon. This bug is pretty bad, and it really does show that basic information on stuff isn't being properly tested/recorded. But no one is perfect, Toady included. Hopefully this will lead to a change in the way information is presented, if were lucky.

[Raphite1]

I have been reflecting on this, and I don't believe this affected the time period when people set up merpeople farms.

You're probably right.  People were going over butchering results with a fine-toothed comb back then.

I believe that the merfolk farm was back in 40d, and my own farming experiences in 40d make me think that animals were growing up just fine. The additional butchering products (organs, etc) were added in the following version: DF2010. DF2010 was a pretty big overhaul of the game and of bodies in particular, so my first guess is that this bug began there.

[darkflagrance]

I have been reflecting on this, and I don't believe this affected the time period when people set up merpeople farms.

You're probably right.  People were going over butchering results with a fine-toothed comb back then.

I believe that the merfolk farm was back in 40d, and my own farming experiences in 40d make me think that animals were growing up just fine. The additional butchering products (organs, etc) were added in the following version: DF2010. DF2010 was a pretty big overhaul of the game and of bodies in particular, so my first guess is that this bug began there.

Yes, I agree. It's likely that this happened when Toady rewrote the bodies code in the transition from 40d to 31.xx, given that the merpeople farming was a 40d phenomenon. That was the last major time the bodies code was fiddled with on a massive scale. I wonder if this phenomenon is related to rabbits not producing any usable meat in the current version, as opposed to their size merely being too small?

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

I wonder if this phenomenon is related to rabbits not producing any usable meat in the current version, as opposed to their size merely being too small?

I don't think so. I'm almost positive I've slaughtered migrant rabbits and you just get no meat.

[VerdantSF]

If relative size difference between combatants is so important to blunt damage (and punching is blunt damage), then choosing the correct dwarf for law enforcement could decide the fate of your fort.

Actually, the funny thing is, the few times when Edem II actually caused a serious wound, it was due to an unarmed strike.

2346 STR: 23 hits with a masterful steel war hammer, 23 bruises, 0 serious wounds.  ZERO .  The only serious wounds he managed were from unarmed strikes.

His other combat logs are the same.  Hammer bruise, hammer bruise, punch shatter, kick fracture, hammer bruise, hammer bruise... It's very odd.  You'd expect the unarmed strikes to be even worse, but the exact opposite is true.  I wonder if it's because the contact area for the fists and feet of tiny dwarves is smaller, so the concentrated force compensates, whereas blunt weapons remain the same size, despite the smaller dwarf's stature.

[Kastrol Aslaasri]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but... am I the only one thinking this?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but... am I the only one thinking this?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ha ha ha! Behold Edem II, Goblinite Miner!

[fricy]

I'm sorry to interrupt, but... am I the only one thinking this?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Nah, your dwarf Dwarf is way too big, think realistic.