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[duckman]

Shouldn't these findings be put up as a bug report? Or are we just going to wait and hope it gets noticed first instead?

[Urist McDwarfFortress]

Shouldn't these findings be put up as a bug report? Or are we just going to wait and hope it gets noticed first instead?

I believe it was, back on like page 4 or something.

[VerdantSF]

Yup, I added it this morning.

[duckman]

Shouldn't these findings be put up as a bug report? Or are we just going to wait and hope it gets noticed first instead?

I believe it was, back on like page 4 or something.

Serves me right for not looking more carefully, I guess.

[Saraias]

Wow. Very interesting. My gameplay focuses heavily on civilization-building, marriages, bloodlines, and succession - things that will be even more possible with the next release since history will continue, forts can be retired without dfhack, etc. This affects that dramatically.

My current fort doesn't have any children born in previous forts who migrated to the current one, or I'd check them to see if they reset to proper size during that process. So curious!

[TheDarkStar]

 Well, this removes most of the value of dwarven children. Time to make another atom smasher!

[Vgray]

Does this bug affect migrant children?

[BoredVirulence]

Does this bug affect migrant children?

Not sure.
However, I assume that the bug is caused by reaching an age where you would typically grow, and during fortress mode it simply doesn't change the size properly. This happens twice in a dwarf's life cycle, becoming a child, and becoming an adult.

I would assume, if they arrived as a child they will be child sized. If they arrived as an infant, they will be infant sized. But these are assumptions that should be tested.

[Urist_McGamer]

I typically concentrate on building things that I never get around to finishing and don't pay too close attention to the butchering returns of my animals, so I can imagine how I've never encountered this bug. What I can't even imagine is, though all the innumerable hundreds of thousands of dorf-hours of play of even only the most recent version, this wasn't discovered until yesterday.

[Deepblade]

We've probably been dealing with this for several versions. After all, complaints of war animals being too weak have been coming in for a fairly long amount of time. I believe the assumption was Toady just nerfed them so we couldn't overpower everything with 80 war dogs.  It's awesome how the most seemingly mundane thing can lead to Dwarven !!science!! and reveal a HUGE bug that has been afflicting us.

Is anyone checking to see how far back the bug goes?

[fricy]

Excellent science, thx for finding this out!

I did some testing with my animals, because with animals I could determine 100% which one of them were fortress born and which one bought from the elves. With dwarves it's much harder to find out which ones are native, and which ones migrated as an adult/child.

The results clearly show that fortress-born animals are much smaller then the others, BUT there are some exceptions: Two of the native spiders and at least one of the unicorns is full grown. I'm 100% sure they were born in the fort.

This is from a 21 year old fort (Masterwork MOD v2.h), creature size raws are posted at the end for masterwork only pets.

Code: [Select]

Status bloodcount
Forest spider migrant male 2760
Forest spider migrant female 4980
Forest spider native male 479
Forest spider native male 359
Forest spider native male 2940
Forest spider native male 673
Forest spider native male 90
Forest spider native male 439
Forest spider native female 5520
Forest spider native male 469
Forest spider native male 950
Forest spider native male 373
Forest spider native male 585
Unicorn invader 56400
Unicorn migrant 66600
Unicorn foal native 18706
Unicorn native 63000
Unicorn native 24372
Unicorn native 21420
Drake native 731
Drake native 562
Drake native 807
Drake native 716
Drake native 291
Drake native 412


forest spider
[SELECT_CASTE:FEMALE]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:500]
[BODY_SIZE:1:0:20000]
[BODY_SIZE:2:0:60000]
[SELECT_CASTE:MALE]
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:200]
[BODY_SIZE:1:0:10000]
[BODY_SIZE:2:0:30000]

Drake
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:2300]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:112:5000]
   [BODY_SIZE:0:224:7500]
   [BODY_SIZE:1:0:10000]
   [BODY_SIZE:1:168:45000]
   [BODY_SIZE:2:0:70000]
   [BODY_SIZE:2:168:95000]
   [BODY_SIZE:3:0:140000]


[Ieb]

I think I can confirm that some creatures born in the fort do actually mature. I have a huge bunch of sabre-tooth tigers that I train for war because why the fuck not, and here are the results on the "adult" tigers based on max_blood.

Code: [Select]

Born in 190 - Blood 42075(I am pretty sure this is the one that I used as the breeders)
Born in 209 - Blood 25434
Born in 211 - Blood 30069
Born in 211 - Blood 31664
Born in 210 - Blood 10198
Born in 211 - Blood 42075(this is among the newer batch of grown tigers, and I am pretty sure this is about the max bodysize for 'em or at least among it("He is gigantic and muscular.")
Born in 211 - Blood 4807(OH MY FUCKING GOD LOOK AT THAT TINY SABER TOOTH TIGER)
Born in 211 - Blood 42500(largest one yet, also among newer ones)
Born in 209 - Blood 9769
Born in 211 - Blood 39179
Born in 211 - Blood 5413
Born in 211 - Blood 41085
Born in 211 - Blood 11160
Born in 209 - Blood 40871
Born in 211 - Blood 19739
Born in 211 - Blood 9400
Born in 211 - Blood 40849
Born in 211 - Blood 45900
Born in 211 - Blood 41650
Born in 208 - Blood 16794
Born in 208 - Blood 8755
Born in 211 - Blood 15352
So I am not seeing much of a real pattern here, except that somehow, some adult tigers grow into a respectable size, some seem to be staying in the child size, and others in the baby size. Going by stages, their RAW sizes at birth is 32500, at 1 year 120000 and 2 years at 425000.

There's some fuckery going on, definitely. I don't have any kids who have grown up in the fort yet, unfortunately, so this is all you get from me.

[Man of Paper]

This explains so much. I just figured my self-sustaining forts were being wiped out by enemies improving at an extreme rate once you hit a certain point in pop or wealth. For now I'll just reason it as something along the lines of the Hapsburg Lip, a by-product of inbreeding among dwarves.

[Tirion]

What I find lucky is how they at least don't have problems wearing armor.

[Sutremaine]

Well, that was an unexpected discovery...

For a dwarf or other creature with no injuries, are the 'getbloodcount' and 'maxblood' scripts always going to return the same number for each creature?