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[BoredVirulence]

have you all ruled out the personality values as a factor?

Pretty much, yeah.

My clone of Edem II had an identical personality. At least, identical to his post modding personality. And modding his personality didn't make a difference.

Also ruled out mental traits, such as spatial sense, kinesthetic sense, etc.

[Sutremaine]

Their body sizes are the same, as are the weapon skills.

The newer versions of splinterz' branch don't read body size, displaying all dwarves as 60000. You can find an older version, or use DFHack's getbloodcount function and then multiply the result by 10 for true body size.

Alternatively, give Edem a pick or axe plus no shield and see if he multigrasps it or not.

[VerdantSF]

Aha!  Thank you, Sutremaine!  I just assumed splinterz DT's display was correct and variable sizes had all been normalized to 60000.  When I switched the legendaries in question to picks as weapons with no shields, guess who had to multigrasp ?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

According to the min sizes for wielding picks 1- & 2-handed, 42500 ≤ Edem II's size < 47500.  Meanwhile, the other hammer legendaries (1 of the hammerdwarves recently died of old age) & the macedwarf are all > 47500.  Edem II is still large enough to avoid the to-hit penalty for wielding maces and hammers, but I think there's a compelling case for his size affecting his damage output.

[PDF urist master]

so size affects preformance...

we have to do more tests.

[Urist Da Vinci]

Downloaded save. Used DFHack.

Edem has a blood_max of 435. Other dwarves in your fort typically have around 4000 to 6000.

[VerdantSF]

Ah, thanks for the info!  I couldn't find the blood_max script in the DFHack repository at github.com.  Where is it located?

[Urist Da Vinci]

Edem's corpse weighs 10, whereas Dishmab's corpse weighs 138.

Edem has 4 bones and 7 meat as butchering results, whereas Dishmab has 23 bones and 21 meat.

Edem is too small to have brain, kidneys, spleen, sweetbread, tripe, liver, heart, or lungs as butchering results, unlike Dishmab. This is indicative of a small body size, and shows that the loss of size can't be caused by the old wounds.

I am suspicious that dwarves who are born at a fort are not growing up properly.

FAKEEDIT:

ALL of the dwarves that were born at your fort (and not any of the migrants) also have this problem of low body size. They are all about the same size that they were when they were younger children (based on your actual young children), despite being in their 20's! Olon II has a blood_max of 324!

People, please examine your own savegames/forts to see if this is a widespread bug. We appear to have a case of Dwarfism.

[VerdantSF]

Good find, Urist!  It looks like this bug is even more widespread, affecting all creatures in the fort.

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=91166.msg4284557#msg4284557

The crashes in Legends Viewer are most likely related.  I thought it was only Edem II, but it turns out that any dwarf born in the fort causes the same error.

In the meantime, I've given Lil' Edem II a short sword.  Even though he's only level 6 with short swords, and it's exceptional, not masterful, he did far better in combat than ever before!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

26 weapon strikes split b/w 5 deflections, 5 bruises, and 16 serious wounds (61%)

With blunt weapons, his percentage of serious wounds was 0-8%.  Quite an improvement!

[Larix]

Wow, that's interesting stuff. I did notice that smaller-sized poultry (guineafowl mostly) never seemed to produce butchery returns and there seemed to be no consistent difference between the returns from lambs and 'grown' rams and ewes, but i had no idea it was that bad.

Hmm, it might explain the less than stellar performance of large squads of war animals - if you have many, most of them will be born in the fort, and with the lack of growth, they'd remain cub/pup-sized forever. And size is the main factor in determining an animal's combat efficiency.

And for a little mindfuck - dwarfs born in your fort can marry and have children. With the lack of growth, that should mean the baby and the mother are roughly the same size...

[Iceflame]

That means fortress-born dwarfs are pretty much useless for military?

[kingubu]

Guineafowl never give butchering returns, they're just too small.

From my experiments in egg hatching and butchering, newborn peafowl and geese are newborn size for about 3 seconds, then they jump to a random size with a maximum slightly less than adult.  Bottom end runs about 20% of max.

This means that adult breeders raised in the fort could squeeze out a baby that is 5 times larger than their mom.
Man, I wish Goombageek was here to draw this.

Turkeys and chickens jump to a much smaller size, less than half of adult size.  Too small, in fact, to butcher for anything.  So there is some correlation between growth rate and final size.  Perhaps turkeys, chickens, geese, peafowl, dogs, and cats all jump to a size based on their [BODY_SIZE:1:0:XXXXX] tags, the size they should be after 1 year.

I am terribly curious to find out how big baby cave dragons are.  And I am running dfhack, so I'm curious if this can be reproduced in vanilla.  But it's not going to be me doing the testing.  Been wrestling with this bug all week.  I am scienced out.

[slothen]

Its kind of funny that dwarf fortress is such an abstract game that we cannot answer basic questions like "how big is it?" through normal means.

[BoredVirulence]

Glad to see this get answered. I never even thought about body size.

[chevil]

Edem is too small to have brain, kidneys, spleen, sweetbread, tripe, liver, heart, or lungs

I think I see the problem.

[Raphite1]

Dang, and I had just set up a blog to chronicle a natural-reproduction fort, and played out the first year. This is a pretty serious bug.