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[Ribs]

This is something I like to bring up every once in a while, and listening to the latest DF talk made me want to talk about it again.

Of course I'm talking about how to handle an excessive number of dwarves in your settlement. As the game currently stands, you often get most of your dwarves to stay idle by the time the population gets large enough. Their only use is for large hauling orders every once in a while, but it's very hard to make a fortress with the population of 100+ adults where most of them have something to do (I'm sure some people can do it, but I think it takes a painful amount of management for most of us to get to that point).

Toady commented on this recently, by suggesting that a way around it would be to go "Majesty style" and give more freedom of choice to your dwarves, which I assume would entail having them be more independent and produce more things on their own. The bad thing about this would be that we would lose a lot of control over how our fortress operates if the dwarves are more autonomous, and quite frankly I don't think dwarven AI would ever be good enough for me to completely trust them with fortress production.

My suggestion is that maybe we could select which dwarves should work "directly" for the fortress, and which would be independent. This could, in a much more fun way, also work together with a revised fortress economy.

You could select the dwarves you want to work for you directly, and those would work more or less as they do right now:

• You can control their jobs and activities at will, as you can now
• You're responsable for providing them with food, booze and a room(as we are now) or, in case there's an economy, you could just provide them with wages so they can afford these things on their own.
• These would probably be a selective group of craftsdwarves, along with miners, farmers and soldiers

And then we would have dwarves that work on their own. You don't select them as direct fortress "employees", and they are left to their own devices. Now, that would be really complex, but it could work like this:

• You can't toggle their jobs, and they don't respond to your workshop orders
• Maybe you could set them an area where they would make their own workshops, or ou could just allow them to use anything in your fortress
• As you generally own the monopoly of raw resources(stone, wood, food), they would probably "buy" (or maybe just get) these resources from your stockpiles, make thier own thing with it, and try to sell it back to you. Or maybe they could also trade with caravans(If you allow it), for resources and selling their crafts.
• This would work a lot better with an economy, as the autonomous dwarves could have a financial logic to their work.
• You control the stockpiles they have access to, so they don't just get access to valiable goods if you don't allow them.
• They can't just stay idle all day and just eat and drink for free. If there's no work, they'll either go broke and starve or leave.
• You're not directly responsible for feeding them, keeping them dressed and giving them rooms. And if the economy is there, you don't owe them wages and in fact could even tax them at some point.
• You can control stockpile demand to entice the production of certain goods. So autonomous clothiers would want to buy your pig tail plants, make cloth with them and then sell them back to you. And so on

This could be an interesting way of controling the population. You allow dwarves that you don't really need to stick around if they want to, and if they're not productive they should be able to leave on their own. If you want to control every single dwarf for some reason you could still do it, and have a large population of resource wasting dwarves running around not having work to do and still eating and drinking from your supplies. If you want to diminish the population you could just make the dwarves you don't want around autonomous and close your stockpiles from them, forcing them to leave. Although that last one is just plain cruel, still a Win/win for players. In the end I guess I'm proposing the creation of a fortress "private sector", or something like that.

[sweitx]

In the mean time, a "sort of" way.
Enable ALL labor on the dwarf. That will they'll do whatever task needed to be done.

[assasin]

What I would do is have the ability to set up work schedules for any dwarf in the fortress. When they're on shift they might not do what you tell them to do but you could punish them. When they're off shift they'd do whatever they want, but you'd be able to ban them from doing it if nessesary, like using a workshop you have reserved for emergencies or using supplies you're planning to use for nobles. If you want you could leave half the fortress to their own devices, or you could micromanage shift schedules in order to balance the happiness versus productivity of the dwarves.

I think the way its set up in the OP is a bit too forced into either working for you or not. WHile its probably closer to real life I see dwarf society as more of a gift economy communal type deal where you give your labour and time and know that you will be taken care of in return. Of course that is boring. So players should have the option of paying dwarves or whatever and charging for everything capatilist style [I'm all for options] but the way I'd personally set my fortress up is having food and housing and furniture and whatever be free, and if they want to trade with each other I'd give them a ration of set value of whatever they want out of the non reserved communal stockpiles which they can use to make stuff to trade with each other or the caravan or whatever.

[Ribs]

In the mean time, a "sort of" way.
Enable ALL labor on the dwarf. That will they'll do whatever task needed to be done.

Sure, that's a way to do it. But you'd have little control over the quality of your crafts and engravings. And even so, a fortress with 200+ dwarves with all al labor enabled would still have plenty of idlers.

Also, the big problem with that is that it's actually sort of "cheating" in a way. Realistically, and many would hope the game would get to that point, a dwarf should never be able to master all jobs, and even learning the basics for some would take quite some time. You shouldn't be able to tell an unskilled dwarf to carve a throne out of marble and expect them to do it by themselves.

What I would do is have the ability to set up work schedules for any dwarf in the fortress. When they're on shift they might not do what you tell them to do but you could punish them. When they're off shift they'd do whatever they want, but you'd be able to ban them from doing it if nessesary, like using a workshop you have reserved for emergencies or using supplies you're planning to use for nobles. If you want you could leave half the fortress to their own devices, or you could micromanage shift schedules in order to balance the happiness versus productivity of the dwarves.

I think the way its set up in the OP is a bit too forced into either working for you or not. WHile its probably closer to real life I see dwarf society as more of a gift economy communal type deal where you give your labour and time and know that you will be taken care of in return. Of course that is boring. So players should have the option of paying dwarves or whatever and charging for everything capatilist style [I'm all for options] but the way I'd personally set my fortress up is having food and housing and furniture and whatever be free, and if they want to trade with each other I'd give them a ration of set value of whatever they want out of the non reserved communal stockpiles which they can use to make stuff to trade with each other or the caravan or whatever.

That's interesting... I've never understood dwarven society as being all that communal. I always thought that the reason why everything is shared in the beginning is because that's the way an expediction sort of works. When it becomes a bigger settlement, I would thing, things would change. Dwarves are greedy, and prone to the formation of castes that kind of disoise each other as I can see the game being developed. But you never know. Toady may think that this "communal economy" is dwarfier than my little vision.

Well, the way my set up works would actually allow you to give your dwarves everything for free. All you'd have to do is "employ them" (for a lack of a better term), as dependents and they would work as they do now. You would appoint them to their quarters and they could have full access to your stockpiles. Maybe it could work as you say, but I just think that allowing some dwarves to work in a completely independent way could be a lot of fun. You could even set it up as a little village or section within your fortress, composed by a few craftsdwarves and traders that would set residence in your fortress, but wouldn't work directly for you. Instead they would buy things from your stockpiles and make their own businesses.

[Matoro]

I don't understand why DF would need more control over an individual dwarves. Yes, it makes game easier (and lots more micromanagement...) but it doesen't fit to the core of the DF. The very idea of the game is that you don't have a total control in any of your dwarves. Dwarves have their own lives as do other creatures in the game. You're the leader of the dwarves, you give orders. You aren't a god (Armok is) or hivemind. You are just guy gving the orders and managing the orders, hoping that they will be done. It's what Dwarf Fortress is about. It's what makes it so awesome and hilarious. The game itself has a life, the player is just one part of it. Losing is fun, and indirect controlling of dwarves is most often the cause of fun. Dwarf Fortress is about losing, failing. Not about controlling everything perfectly.

[Tsumi]

If (WHEN) the economy returns, I would love to see a shift type management system. It wouldn't really give more control over individual dwarfs, but it would make a more practical labor system. It could be set up much like scheduling in the military.

Create a shift and add dwarfs to it, then toggle the months which they work and don't work. When their shift ends they'd finish their current job and head off to wherever dwarfs go when they aren't being forced into manual labor. Their down time would give the other dwarfs a chance to level up vital skills as well as giving the off-the-clock dwarfs a perfect time to throw all the parties they could want to, which I can only see as a way to boost social skills.

Not to mention that using the above method would render this a completely optional feature, so people who didn't like it wouldn't have to use it. Although the addition of a few other moodlets would be nice: Bad thoughts from prolonged shifts, happy thoughts from longer breaks <<<--- or more frequent breaks.

[Timeless Bob]

A shift management system sounds a lot like burrow alerts.  You assign dwarves to certain burrows for a month or three and they can't leave them until that alert times out, whereupon they're free to go wherever they wish.  Setting up a system of burrows only for farmers or only for other job lots, complete with the communal employee housing and dining area sounds very similar to what you're describing.  Unburrowed dwarves would have to be let alone, since they're "off shift", except for emergencies like mandates or invasions, but that's just to keep the illusion of free will alive...  Could work.

[Ribs]

If (WHEN) the economy returns, I would love to see a shift type management system. It wouldn't really give more control over individual dwarfs, but it would make a more practical labor system. It could be set up much like scheduling in the military.

Create a shift and add dwarfs to it, then toggle the months which they work and don't work. When their shift ends they'd finish their current job and head off to wherever dwarfs go when they aren't being forced into manual labor. Their down time would give the other dwarfs a chance to level up vital skills as well as giving the off-the-clock dwarfs a perfect time to throw all the parties they could want to, which I can only see as a way to boost social skills.

Not to mention that using the above method would render this a completely optional feature, so people who didn't like it wouldn't have to use it. Although the addition of a few other moodlets would be nice: Bad thoughts from prolonged shifts, happy thoughts from longer breaks <<<--- or more frequent breaks.

I think having ALL your dwarves being full time workers with obligations to your every whim unless they're taking a break should only go so far. In the first few years, when you're still in expedition mode with only 7 dwarves that makes perfect sense, but at some point I think that setting some of them aside to do whatever they want should work better.

Again, my main idea is that you could let go of some of these dwarves at some point. I wouldn't mind your idea about making shifts for your dwarves to work under, but I would still want to tell some of them to do their own thing completely on their own.

[Tsumi]

I think having ALL your dwarves being full time workers with obligations to your every whim unless they're taking a break should only go so far. In the first few years, when you're still in expedition mode with only 7 dwarves that makes perfect sense, but at some point I think that setting some of them aside to do whatever they want should work better.

Again, my main idea is that you could let go of some of these dwarves at some point. I wouldn't mind your idea about making shifts for your dwarves to work under, but I would still want to tell some of them to do their own thing completely on their own.

Yeah I agree completely, when the fort is small it makes sense to have everyone working, but as it grows it makes sense to switch out. Also I didn't specify what they'd be doing on their free time. Just that they would (if they felt like it) be able to throw parties then without affecting the completion of vital workshop tasks. I think It'd be great to have them be able to choose for themselves, maybe if they are in a foul mood, they'll throw a party, socialize and get their mood up. and if they are already happy they could do other things, including (but not limited to) working on their own accord.

My only quarrel with them working on their own would be them using up materials that were meant to be used in other reactions. So in all honesty if they were to be made capable of working on their own time I'd like to see a toggleable option on stockpiles to allow or block freelancing jobs.

[Timeless Bob]

Ok, then just designate a stockpile to feed only certain workshops which is doable now, and have those workshops set up in a worker's burrow.  Heck, the burrow idea can go the other way too, with "freelance" dwarves burrowed in the entertainment/community areas and workshop dwarves unburrowed, so they have access to all the appropriate stockpiles.  That would have the added bonus of keeping Urist McIdiot from trying to sleep out where a kobold can gank him because he decided to take a stroll to the other side of the map.

[Dwarf Kitty]

Real dwarfy free will would be if we completely eliminated being able to tap dwarfs for labors, and be at the mercy of their extensive preferences and dislikes.   
 
The player would design the fort, set up buildings and furniture, but the dwarves would decide amongst themselves who'd go to what workshop and haul what furniture based on what skills and prefrences they have instead of labors enabled.  Instead of making a skilled Mason carve out blocks, maybe an idle Cook would try her hand at it if she finds a boulder she likes and gets there first.  Building workshops would take skill in the relevant field, not the labor enabled.
 
Then, certain attributes would lend themselves to how a dwarf chooses a job from the long list of possiblities.  A dwarf with better Intuition or Analytical Ablity would be able to see and choose the higher priority jobs better, such as taking items to the trade depot.  Creative dwarves might attempt the craftier jobs even if they don't have much skill in the material.  Helpful dwarves with strong Empathy might pitch in easier.
 
All dwarves become happier since they are doing jobs they actually like doing.  They'd gain in skill at labors they attempt as normal.  Maybe even more than usual since they're focusing on something they have an interest in.
 
The leader dwarf could tantrum when jobs are not being done and prod a dwarf in that skill to get to work.  He might be the only one doing the work that's needed.  ("If you want something done, gotta do it yourself, grumble grumble . . .")  Or at least the tapped nobles do their noble jobs and lead by example.  And they, too, would tantrum and try to get dwarves to complete tasks related to their own jobs.  The broker might ask for haulers, the chief medical dwarf asking for nurses.
 
Because of the chaos this might cause, you'd always have the ability to toggle it on and off, essentially playing the leader declaring such freedom and rescinding it in cases of goblin invasion.  Perhaps as part of the global job orders.  Or you'd globally just put Masons to work and let the others have their freedom for a while.
 
 
Before then, and easier to implement, would be more reactions and activities for the "idle" dwarves, as Tsumi mentioned.  A dwarf might fill a flask with booze or pick up a meal and then go pester visit someone in a workshop.  That not only would fulfill the drinking and socialization needs of the idle dwarf, he'd maybe pick some up some pointers and skill at the active job he witnessed.
 
Another idea is to make some lesser artifact moods where a dwarf gets an idea, chooses currently-available materials (or comes up with random requests but won't go insane if the materials are not on hand in time), and claims an idle workshop to experiment.  It might or might not work, and the dwarf won't automatically become Legendary, but he will gain immensely in the relevant skill, say a skill level or two.
 
I'm sure there's many other little reactions and jobs for "idle" dwarves to do.  We'd set most as easily cancelable in case of pressing concerns like needing everyone to haul stuff to the depot.
 
 
As for the shift idea, that, too, could be a toggleable setting between "slavemaster" (work until tired/hungry/thirsty as it is now) and "shiftwork" (do a few jobs, then go on break and don't look for work in that labor for at least X game ticks).  Dwarves love being industrious, so the switch won't cause happy/unhappy thoughts beyond the gain/loss of extra socialization time.
 
Ooh, combining some of this, you'd end up with dwarves having both professions and hobbies!  They'd end up alternating between the two.  Take a shift, then go on break and do a job in their hobby or experiment with something in their other interests, then go feed, go sleep, and wake up refreshed for a few more jobs on shift.