Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 17

Author Topic: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Summer Vacation!]  (Read 40338 times)

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #105 on: June 11, 2013, 02:29:36 pm »

Today was a really rough day. I'm finally starting to feel good. It's amazing how a happy feeling right at the end of the day can color all your memories so strongly. I'm looking at my notes and it's amazing how terrible I felt earlier.

I have to try not to think too much about that, actually. I end up in a terribly philosophical mood. If I won't even remember feeling this way, maybe even just a few seconds from now, then what does the feeling mean? Nothing is significant, nothing matters if it will be forgotten quickly. Bad moods, yes, they will pass. No matter how bad I'm feeling, I know it won't last forever, and in fact it probably won't even last very long. But the same thing goes for GOOD feelings. What good is happiness when you're fully aware of how fleeting it is?

Like I said, have to try not to think about it. As a very wise fictional character once said, hang the sense of it and keep yourself busy.

Last night I slept better than the previous night, but not by much. On the plus side, I managed to get to sleep without any sedatives, even if it took a while. On the negative side, the cat kept attacking me all night. I guess he wants more attention. I overslept again and raced to work, at least relieved that I was not to be the first one there. My co-teacher agreed to come at 7.30 to open the school (the teacher who usually does it on Tuesday is away this week) and I was supposed to get there by 8. Fortunately I caught all the trains and bus perfectly, and got there about 15 minutes early (7.45). NO ONE WAS THERE. Not a single other person had showed up, including the one who was supposed to be there at 7.30 to start getting ready for our field trip today. Less than five minutes later there were 3 rowdy boys already there causing trouble, me trying to manage them while also preparing for the trip. No other teachers came until 8. Good start to the day.

The trip was a nightmare. 18 kids, including all the most difficult ones, on public transportation for over an hour. Lots of yelling and pushing and fighting and dirty looks from other commuters. And our destination? An interactive exhibition at a gallery. Primarily about sound. There were entire rooms filled with every possible noise-making device imaginable. BIG instruments. GIANT instruments. Lots of running and hitting and screaming and all the noise noise noise NOISE. By the time we left my ears were terribly painful. I nearly had a meltdown on the way back to the school. And the icing on the cake? On my way home from work I discovered I had forgotten my headphones at the school. No music, no barrier between my sore ears and the noises of the outside world.

Then I got home to an email from the school I had interviewed at 6 weeks ago telling me they had given the position to someone else.

At least, after Taiji, I managed to motivate myself enough to finally wash the dishes and cook dinner. (I didn't even eat lunch. Too stressed to eat.) Now I don't know if I can bring myself to clean it all up properly though. At least I got a few more interviews today. Wish me luck finding a job everyone. If I don't find enough work, I don't just move back with my family or even become homeless. I get kicked out of the fucking country.

Spoiler: Tuesday 11.6.13 notes (click to show/hide)

I'm exhausted now and will probably go to bed soon. the apartment is getting messy again though. I haven't vacuumed in a few days and the clutter is starting to build up. I just don't have the time or energy to clean. How do people live their lives and also manage to keep their home tidy? How is it possible?

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #106 on: June 12, 2013, 01:14:41 pm »

And we come to the end of another very long and difficult day. I seem to have fucked up my back somehow on that trip yesterday (crazy, right, that I might hurt myself swinging around wildly on a fast-moving tram trying to keep 18 small children together in the mob of people) so I've been in pain all day. Had to leave Taiji training early. That is some serious pain, let me tell you. I'm grouchy and miserable and the last thing I feel like doing is recounting all the food I ate today, so I'm going to skip it today. In fact, I might take a bit of a break from the daily updates, until my stress levels simmer back down a bit. I'll try to post any significant things I notice, and I will continue to track myself on my little charts, but the detailed info is probably going to slow to a trickle for a while.

The one positive thing about today is that I picked up my bottle of La Grenouille premium absinthe at the post office on my way home. I'm about to take my first taste. It smells amazing. Proper absinthe, in the land of fake neon green tourist shit, I have missed you so much.

I'm still interested in getting data from other people, if there are any volunteers. You might be surprised what you learn about yourself!
« Last Edit: June 12, 2013, 01:21:00 pm by Sappho »
Logged

RedKing

  • Bay Watcher
  • hoo hoo motherfucker
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #107 on: June 12, 2013, 01:24:53 pm »

I would love to help, but I'm notoriously bad at maintaining any kind of records about myself. Or really, doing anything that requires self-discipline and setting aside discrete packets of time on a regular basis.  :-\
Logged

Remember, knowledge is power. The power to make other people feel stupid.
Quote from: Neil DeGrasse Tyson
Science is like an inoculation against charlatans who would have you believe whatever it is they tell you.

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #108 on: June 12, 2013, 02:59:39 pm »

That's okay. I don't set aside packets of time though - I manage it by obsessing over it every waking second. MUCH easier.

This absinthe is truly amazing. I'm so glad I decided to order it. I got a bit of an energy rush from the herbs in it for a while, but I'm calming down now. Feeling much better than I did earlier but dreading tomorrow. Another long day, though hopefully not as difficult as the past few have been. Also realizing how late it is... It's tough to make myself fully realize it's time to settle in and head to bed when it doesn't get dark until nearly 22.30.

The cat is sniffing at his ceramic pot but doesn't seem pleased... I had been growing lentils in there for him. He loves the greens and since he doesn't go outside it seems like a good idea to have something like this available (and lentils are DIRT cheap and grow super fast and I have them sitting around anyway). But he ate all the lentils and I had some mung bean sprouts so I threw some of them in there, and he doesn't seem so interested in the greens coming up now. Maybe I should go back to lentils. I should see if I can get my hands on some catnip seeds... Can you believe they don't really have catnip in this country? I have to bring it with me from America. I'll have to order some seeds online or something.

Okay, that's enough for tonight. Good night everyone. Go snuggle a cat.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #109 on: June 12, 2013, 03:01:31 pm »

The one positive thing about today is that I picked up my bottle of La Grenouille premium absinthe at the post office on my way home. I'm about to take my first taste. It smells amazing. Proper absinthe, in the land of fake neon green tourist shit, I have missed you so much.
Oi, be careful with that good stuff  ;).
Actually be careful with any kind of intoxication. As much as I enjoy it, I find swinging back between highs and hangovers over a prolonged time very exhausting physically and mentally. I don't have any hard data (I'm too lazy to collect it too), but in my experience even relatively low amounts of alcohol/pot/chemicals can screw up your eating habits and sleep cycles, if taken regularly.
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #110 on: June 12, 2013, 11:29:29 pm »

The one positive thing about today is that I picked up my bottle of La Grenouille premium absinthe at the post office on my way home. I'm about to take my first taste. It smells amazing. Proper absinthe, in the land of fake neon green tourist shit, I have missed you so much.
Oi, be careful with that good stuff  ;).
Actually be careful with any kind of intoxication. As much as I enjoy it, I find swinging back between highs and hangovers over a prolonged time very exhausting physically and mentally. I don't have any hard data (I'm too lazy to collect it too), but in my experience even relatively low amounts of alcohol/pot/chemicals can screw up your eating habits and sleep cycles, if taken regularly.

Oh, yes, no argument from me. Fortunately I have managed to get myself out of the habit of regularly consuming such substances. For sure I tend to feel awful the next day if I use this means to get to sleep (or certainly if I go out partying or something). Right now it's difficult. Due to the high amount of stress I'm under, I am absolutely not sleeping, even when I'm utterly exhausted. Each night I have a choice. I can not sleep and be dead the whole next day (adding even more to my stress levels), or I can sedate myself in various ways, all of which will likely result in me feeling crappy in the morning (even small amounts). Either way the next day is going to be rough, and it will remain this way until I can get control of my life back. If I sedate myself then the morning will be unpleasant, but then again mornings are always unpleasant for me, and the afternoon tends to be better than it would if I had simply not slept. So sometimes I go with that option, either drinking or smoking a little bit, or having some strong sedative tea. (I'm quite proud that I have avoided diazepam completely for a few months now.) But I don't like how often it's happening now. I hope I can break this cycle soon...

In any case, I wasn't drinking the absinthe for drunkenness or sedative effect. I was just tasting it. I mean really, the tiniest bit - maybe 1/3 of what you'd call a "shot" - mixed with sugar and water to bring out the flavor and drunk over a period of more than an hour. I do feel crappy this morning, but I can't be sure if it's due to that little bit of alcohol (plus the sugar) or just because I didn't really sleep. Both, I suppose.

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #111 on: June 13, 2013, 12:11:30 am »

I can relate to that, I tend to feel crappy in the morning too and compensate with large amounts of coffee. I doubt small quantities of alcohol are detrimental to quality of sleep, I just tend to avoid alcohol as a means to get sleepy, as I would require increasingly larger quantities over several days.

Absinthe is a fine taste when consumed with burned sugar. I just got to know the Green Fairy too well one time  ;).
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #112 on: June 13, 2013, 05:18:42 am »

I can relate to that, I tend to feel crappy in the morning too and compensate with large amounts of coffee. I doubt small quantities of alcohol are detrimental to quality of sleep, I just tend to avoid alcohol as a means to get sleepy, as I would require increasingly larger quantities over several days.

Absinthe is a fine taste when consumed with burned sugar. I just got to know the Green Fairy too well one time  ;).

Ack, no way! Burned sugar... This was invented in recent years to make it look flashier and to keep tourists interested. Whenever you introduce fire to absinthe, aside from the huge fire hazard (that shit is generally around 70% alcohol), you also burn off most of the alcohol content and ruin much of the flavor. Absinthe should be mixed with cold sugar water, or if you want to be showy about it you can drip cold water over a sugar cube on a special absinthe spoon, dissolving it in the process (but this takes longer and is less effective than just dissolving the sugar in the water before adding it). Sugar won't dissolve readily in alcohol, so you need the water to do it. If you don't add the sugar, the taste is quite flat and mostly of licorice. If you properly add sugar water (without burning or melting it first), you get a whole range of smells and flavors. Also it's beautiful to watch the cloud form in the glass... If the sugar is melted or burned first, or especially if the absinthe itself is ignited, the flavor is much less interesting and the drink is far less potent.

I had a rough trip to work this morning, sensitivity high right from the get go, but actually the day at work has been okay. I gave the kids some paper dolls to color in and cut out and that kept them busy, and we managed to keep them quiet all morning. It helps that the most difficult kid is not here today. And the two second most difficult ones are both going home after lunch! Rest should be pretty easy and then they have aikido (an hour free for me), then I only have one more hour before I leave. Should be pretty good. So here's hoping I'll have the energy and motivation to get my apartment back in the state I want it to be, and cook something healthy for dinner (I've been resorting to pre-made meals far too much this week).

XXSockXX

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #113 on: June 13, 2013, 11:04:15 am »

Ack, no way! Burned sugar... This was invented in recent years to make it look flashier and to keep tourists interested. Whenever you introduce fire to absinthe, aside from the huge fire hazard (that shit is generally around 70% alcohol), you also burn off most of the alcohol content and ruin much of the flavor. Absinthe should be mixed with cold sugar water, or if you want to be showy about it you can drip cold water over a sugar cube on a special absinthe spoon, dissolving it in the process (but this takes longer and is less effective than just dissolving the sugar in the water before adding it).
Yes, I may be victim to a trend there, absinthe was illegal here till the late 90s and then it became hip. I would put an absinthe-soaked cube of sugar on a spoon, set it on fire and let the caramelized sugar drip into the absinthe (without inflaming the whole thing of course, that would be bad), then add water.
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #114 on: June 13, 2013, 11:28:08 am »

If you ever get the opportunity to try again, just add sugar water. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised.

So I just had my dinner of a caprese sandwich (tomato, basil, and mozzarella on a baguette with olive oil and balsamic vinaigrette) and my stomach is starting to hurt. Like, big ouch pains, similar to when I had food poisoning a couple weeks ago. I am trying to convince myself that it's only gas from my lactose intolerance from the cheese on my sandwich, but I'm super paranoid now that I might have food poisoning again. Any advice?

Today has been a super sleepy day. I fell asleep on the way to work, and again on the way home. Also for a few minutes during rest. The strange thing is, I've been drinking caffeinated tea all day. Strong tea, in fact. Now I'm worried I won't be able to sleep at night again...

EDIT: Well either it was just gas, or else the double shot of the 140 proof fake absinthe I drank killed the infection before it could do any damage. As horrible as that stuff is, it's useful to keep around for medical uses. (It tasted SO FUCKING BAD.)

A few thoughts on sleep. I'm feeling rather sleepy right now, but restless as well (presumably due to stress). That said, I fell asleep, unintentionally and with almost no warning, three separate times today. Morning, midday, and afternoon. I got enough sleep last night that I shouldn't be passing out from pure exhaustion. And this has been happening all week, even during things I enjoy (Taiji training for example). I wake up frequently during the night, usually from nightmares (always from dreams), and am nodding off all the time.

This used to always be the case. To the point that I was sure I had narcolepsy. Stress and a hyperactive mind might be blamed for my difficulty falling asleep at night, but aside from that I had all the symptoms of narcolepsy, including hypnagogic hallucinations, sleep paralysis, frequent lucid dreams, apparent near-constant dreaming (I always wake up in the middle of a dream), frequent awakening at night, excessive daytime sleepiness, and attacks of falling asleep (almost always under stressful circumstances and around the same time of day or in similar circumstances). Over the past couple of months I started to think that I was wrong about narcolepsy, because I stopped falling asleep during the day. Now, the sleep attacks are back.

So I still have no idea what the deal is. I don't know of any other sleep disorder (I think it's pretty clear I have SOME kind of sleep disorder) with all these symptoms, other than narcolepsy. But it would seem that my difficulty falling asleep at night would make that diagnosis impossible. I tried contacting a sleep lab nearby once but they never responded (presumably they didn't speak English). Maybe I should have a Czech friend contact them for me. In any case, it would be a very expensive process to diagnose me, and my insurance wouldn't pay for any of it. And I'm a teacher, so, um, not exactly rich over here.

I would like to find a better way to do some !!SCIENCE!! on this. Any ideas or suggestions are welcome!!!
« Last Edit: June 13, 2013, 02:46:58 pm by Sappho »
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #115 on: June 14, 2013, 05:37:51 am »

Hm... Was quite calm and happy all morning, even with bad weather, but suddenly as soon as lunch started I got massive anxiety, panic, anger... Outside we had a nice time but as we were coming inside the kids stared getting louder and crazier and wouldn't sit or calm down for lunch. I immediately started feeling irritation and anxiety, worsened by the fact that my boss was there to "help" which is always the most stressful thing that can happen at work. She basically lets the kids do whatever they want (she was giving one kid piskoty, a sweet snack, instead of lunch, because he said he didn't want lunch) and favors her 4-year-old daughter terribly, sitting next to her and catering to her every whim (she had ordered the meat lunch but demanded half meat, half vegetarian, with a side of of the sweet lunch they can get on Fridays, and of course she got it). My boss is also one of the loudest adults I know and her mere presence in the room brings the volume up to an intolerable level as the kids shout over her to talk to each other.

It's upsetting to notice myself going so quickly from happy to near-meltdown. Is it possible I am really getting hormonal already? I should have nearly another week before that happens. I'll have to keep these notes carefully for at least a few months to see if I can pinpoint the day my PMS starts and if it really is as unreasonably long as it seems to be. Not that there's much I can do about it if it is, I suppose, other than taking tranquilizers, which I want to avoid...

As I came here to the office for my break, the toddlers were just outside the office door getting ready to go home. They were singing the same repetitive irritating songs as always and of course one of them was just screaming the whole time. I nearly started crying, but fortunately I had the presence of mind to run back to my classroom and grab my headphones. I've got Inama Nushif from the Children of Dune soundtrack blaring in my ears now as loud as I can tolerate it (which is unfortunately still not quite loud enough to drown out the screaming, but it certainly helps).

I'm praying that the afternoon goes better than lunch. I fell asleep on the way to work again, and I feel quite likely to do so again during rest, despite the coffee I drank... I have a Taiji conditioning workshop for 2.5 hours after work, so I have to be awake for that. I hope I can manage it.

It seems important to note that caffeine has been doing nothing against my fatigue for the past few days. I don't normally drink much in the way of caffeinated beverages - maybe one or two cups of tea during the day and rarely any coffee - so I shouldn't have a high tolerance to caffeine. I'm drinking loads of tea and coffee these past few days and it's not helping at all.

Another thing I've noticed, looking at my notes: I am not sad or depressed as often as I imagined I was, but I am also not often happy. Most of the time I seem to be sort of blank and neutral. It's not unpleasant, but it's not pleasant either. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

DeKaFu

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #116 on: June 14, 2013, 07:52:19 am »

Another thing I've noticed, looking at my notes: I am not sad or depressed as often as I imagined I was, but I am also not often happy. Most of the time I seem to be sort of blank and neutral. It's not unpleasant, but it's not pleasant either. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I'm pretty sure this is a normal part of being a human. I don't think anyone really feels happy all the time, or even most of the time. It's just that it's the notably happy or sad or emotional times that remain in our memory. Memory's funny like that.
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #117 on: June 14, 2013, 02:12:18 pm »

Another thing I've noticed, looking at my notes: I am not sad or depressed as often as I imagined I was, but I am also not often happy. Most of the time I seem to be sort of blank and neutral. It's not unpleasant, but it's not pleasant either. I'm not sure how I feel about this.

I'm pretty sure this is a normal part of being a human. I don't think anyone really feels happy all the time, or even most of the time. It's just that it's the notably happy or sad or emotional times that remain in our memory. Memory's funny like that.

Yeah, I guess I know that, it's just strange to see it on paper. I suppose it's not the fact that I'm not happy all the time - I don't expect that. I'm not even talking about extremes or notably strong feelings. Each hour of the day I think to myself, "do I feel at all happy right now? Do I feel at all unhappy?" And most of the time the answer is "no" to both questions. I just imagined that I sort of went up and down. I never realized how much time I spend perfectly neutral. Like I don't really feel anything. It's really strange. Like I'm a robot or something. Is it that I don't care about what I'm doing, that I have no positive or negative feelings about it? Am I jaded, or apathetic, or what?

I just got back from my Taiji conditioning workshop. Lots of exercises that are supposed to get your heart pumping and work your muscles. For the first half (even after chugging a whole bottle of sugary caffeinated iced tea) I was in constant danger of falling asleep. I had to stop one of the partner exercises right in the middle because I thought I was going to pass out. We had some good tea during the break and then did some boxing practice, and one or both of those two things managed to wake me up enough that I wasn't passing out for the second half.

It's one thing to feel sleepy or weak when you're doing something you dislike, but something you love? Something you've been looking forward to? You shouldn't be passing out in the middle of that. I had blurry vision, extreme weakness in my limbs, and a constant desire to lie down and sleep. I also fell asleep twice today, on the way to and from work. Out cold with my head bouncing against the bus window. I wasn't able to fall asleep during work because the kids were maniacs during rest, but I spent the whole afternoon regretting that I hadn't been able to lie down and close my eyes for a few minutes.

I feel like I have to do something about this, but I don't know what to do. I suppose I can go to a doctor that my insurance covers and get a recommendation. I know from long experience that they can't diagnose me just based on my symptoms, because I've had sleep issues since I was 5 years old and never gotten a diagnosis. But maybe they can at least send me along to a sleep center (which will drain all my funds, obviously).
« Last Edit: June 14, 2013, 02:17:08 pm by Sappho »
Logged

Neonivek

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #118 on: June 14, 2013, 09:05:23 pm »

I love that comic because it is funny and true... for good reason.

And it managed to be VERY funny without insulting anyone, so bonus too!
Logged

Sappho

  • Bay Watcher
  • AKA Aira; Legendary Female Gamer
    • View Profile
    • Aira Plays Games
Re: Sappho Experiments On Herself - And You! [Volunteers Wanted!]
« Reply #119 on: June 15, 2013, 02:16:53 am »

You mean the SMBC one? You know, for a guy who puts out a new comic every single day of the week including weekends, I am constantly amazed by the high quality of his material. I definitely can't match it and I only make new comics now and then when I feel like it.

This morning I woke up depressed. Very depressed. About a lot of things. I spent a good deal of time crying before I even got out of bed. Then I read some comedy online and I'm not crying anymore, but I can feel that I'm just trying to bury the problems because I don't know how to deal with them. They're still there, waiting. If I don't keep myself busy enough, they'll leap out and hold me down and beat the shit out of me all over again and I don't know how to stop it.

And I'm not talking about irrational depression that makes you feel horrible for no obvious reason. I have reasons. Most of the time I'm able to shove them aside and get on with my life and make a joke about it and focus on what's good, at least enough to not burst into tears. But today that doesn't seem to be the case. This morning I woke up and the depression took its opportunity to jump me and torture me for a while, to the point where I hardly felt I could get out of bed, soaking my pillow with tears in self-pity over how unfair life is.

Maybe if I write some of these things down it will help. Feedback accepted, possibly even appreciated, but not really expected.

Spoiler: Long, sorry. (click to show/hide)

So that's that. I'm not going to training this morning because I'm too embarrassed by how I acted last night. And too afraid I'll burst into tears in the middle of it, or collapse to the ground. If I start letting this leak out, even to the people in my taiji group (who are friends but we haven't known each other that long), it'll all just come pouring out in a flood of unmet needs and despair. I don't like people seeing me cry.

I guess that's all for now. I'll get to the business of distracting myself from the truth of my life again. Maybe make a cup of tea, read a book. I'm still on Children of Dune. Very inspiring. The main characters are so different from others that no one can understand them and they constantly have to adapt to the world which wasn't designed for them. Sounds familiar. At least they're twins, they have each other.

"The chances of finding out what's actually going on are so absurdly remote that the only thing to do is say hang the sense of it and keep yourself busy. I'd rather be happy than right any day."
"And are you?"
"Ah... no."

EDIT: It occurs to me that one of the reasons I love Taiji so much is all the physical contact. When we do push hands, we're grabbing each other, holding on to each other, focused entirely on feeling the other person's movement and reacting to it. It's the closest to cuddling I've gotten in over a year.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 02:41:07 am by Sappho »
Logged
Pages: 1 ... 6 7 [8] 9 10 ... 17