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[Owlbread]

Before I begin I must say I was quite wary of putting this thread in the "general discussion" section. I very nearly put it in "Other Games" but it's basically a political debate thread, just based around modern game development as a whole, rather than discussion of a particular game or something. If administrators think it should be moved, please do.

Let me just start by saying I think most people on this forum will be concerned by the direction gaming is taking, particularly with respect to stuff like DRM. Companies like Microsoft and EA are tightening their grip through stuff like the new Xbox One's "reactivation fee" system and the ghastly SecuROM. My fear is that one day all we'll be doing is buying the right to play a downloaded application on our hard drive for a limited amount of time. I'm not even going to go into stuff like ACTA, my word.

Another point that doesn't really come under "pirate politics" but would come under "disturbing developments" is the shift towards "always online" software/consoles. Reports are conflicted but Xbox One won't be "always online" but it's heading in that direction, requiring users to connect to the internet regularly in order to enjoy the bulk of the services. Considering a lot of people were genuinely worried that the Xbox would be "always online, always connected" even with respect to single player games it shows how close we are to that kind of a situation. Needless to say, it would leave rural people like me or gamers in the developing world at a huge disadvantage when our internet connection just isn't up to scratch, such as when it is hundreds of times slower than the national average. If gaming systems eventually go the way of the OnLive (cloud based, purely digital, streaming etc) we would be completely screwed.

There's also the unpleasant development of companies becoming very interested in tracking us. Personal privacy is being eroded quite significantly.

What do you gentlemen think? What kind of laws need to be implemented to protect consumers, internet users and gamers like ourselves? What should a consumer's rights be when purchasing a digital product? Stardock CEO Brad Wardell produced the Gamer's Bill of Rights that may provide some inspiration, though it's pretty rough.

I'm hoping to awaken the latent pirate politicians among Bay 12 to have an interesting debate. If you are interested in this sort of thing I have a collection of various Pirate Party election manifestos/proposals/statements from across the world just below:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The UK Pirate Party's manifesto 2012(PDF)
Scotland's Pirate Party Manifesto 2011(PDF)
Pirate Party (Sweden) declaration of principles (PDF)
Pirate Party Sweden's 2006 Election Manifesto
Pirate Party (Australia) platform
Pirate Party (Austria) and their policies, unfortunately auf Deutsch only
Czech Pirate Party's policies, again in Czech
Belgian Pirate Party's policies, apparently only available in French

[LordSlowpoke]

Allow me to be the first to say, disregard DRM, acquire Dwarf Fortress.

Carry on.

[Scoops Novel]

This gen of consoles is a scrabble to stay relevant which i doubt will work. There has already been significant backlash to always on, for that matter. Piracy discussions though i can get behind. One would speculate that increasing numbers find increasingly little reason not to pirate from the large businesses in gaming, precisely because of idiotic and draconian deterrent measures, or simply not being worth the money. One might also say that this is fairly endemic to all of the entertainment industry. One might also wonder as to whether the long-term effect would be entirely negative given the already present rise of crowd-funding and other companies inevitably stepping into the vacuum and taking heed or dying themselves. Even the short-term doesn't appear to have been particularly negative.

[shadenight123]

just for the sake of the argument...
install peerblock, then surf the net.
Look at how many sites you are barred access from because Peerblock blocks them.

You are always tracked.
They are always watching.
...
Thankfully I'm in Italy. Before laws against or for pirating are bound to pass, we still have to see five to six new cases on Berlusconi.
...
Democracy in Italy: slow since the beginning of time!

[10ebbor10]

Belgium has a pirate party?

Anyway, on the point of resale. The EU has said that when you buy software, you own it and have the right to resell it*, no matter what the EULA says.**

Nothing much happened about it though.

*Similair to other goods
**Licenses of undefined time are considered buying.

[kingfisher1112]

If people didn't pirate games, DRM to stop pirates wouldn't exist. The argument is that it's easy to crack and just stops the legitimate user. Then stop pirating, and stop disadvantaging the legitimate user. Honestly, I really hate pirates that try to justify it by saying that they are demoing it, or that it sucks and isn't worth paying for. My answer to that is the above, and that Pirates are screwing over people, not companies.

[10ebbor10]

If people didn't pirate games, DRM to stop pirates wouldn't exist. The argument is that it's easy to crack and just stops the legitimate user. Then stop pirating, and stop disadvantaging the legitimate user. Honestly, I really hate pirates that try to justify it by saying that they are demoing it, or that it sucks and isn't worth paying for. My answer to that is the above, and that Pirates are screwing over people, not companies.

DRM these days is more an effort against resale than against piracy. After all, several compagnies have shown that it's not that hard to identify the pirates, and just sue all of them. (After sending a friendly reminder, of course)

Yet somehow they prefer to install backlash creating DRM that only annoys their own customers. (Making piracy more attractive)

[kingfisher1112]

No, if pirates didn't exist, the companies would have on less excuse to apply things like 'Pay to install this game a second time!'

Yes, but CD keys and stuff like UPlay certainly won't. I see those as " Trying to scam money out of people" DRM more so than " Stop Piracy" DRM.

If people didn't pirate games, DRM to stop pirates wouldn't exist. The argument is that it's easy to crack and just stops the legitimate user. Then stop pirating, and stop disadvantaging the legitimate user. Honestly, I really hate pirates that try to justify it by saying that they are demoing it, or that it sucks and isn't worth paying for. My answer to that is the above, and that Pirates are screwing over people, not companies.

DRM these days is more an effort against resale than against piracy. After all, several compagnies have shown that it's not that hard to identify the pirates, and just sue all of them. (After sending a friendly reminder, of course)

Yet somehow they prefer to install backlash creating DRM that only annoys their own customers. (Making piracy more attractive)

Piracy is always attractive regardless of DRM. Look at the insidious shits who pirated the Humble Indie Bundle. That's right. The humble indie bundle. Nobly fighting against children getting money. Oh yeah, Game Dev Tycoon. Remember that? It schooled them as to why the fuck they would pirate an indie startup's game simply because they are thieves.

[Eagleon]

I truly wonder if Microsoft just wants the initial sales jump from gamers to peddle their other services, because this isn't going to work out for them. Used games drive the console gaming industry, at least here in the US - simple matter of economics that not everyone is going to be able to pay $60 for a new game, so it makes sense to let them buy older ones and drive your hype machine well past a game's prime into sequel territory. Developers are not going to be happy when they have to start paying for promotion like movie studios, which means fewer games, and that means fewer people buying your fancy Netflix box.

As for what needs to be done? Nothing, I think. They're already pointing a machine-gun at their feet, trying to eliminate places like Gamestop. If it can't be pirated at all, the pirates won't get the games, and their free promotion and cultural visibility will end. It'll be a much tougher industry, giants like EA and Ubisoft will be forced to expand even further, and meanwhile people will continue to make games on Kickstarter, or *gasp* for free.

[10ebbor10]

If people didn't pirate games, DRM to stop pirates wouldn't exist. The argument is that it's easy to crack and just stops the legitimate user. Then stop pirating, and stop disadvantaging the legitimate user. Honestly, I really hate pirates that try to justify it by saying that they are demoing it, or that it sucks and isn't worth paying for. My answer to that is the above, and that Pirates are screwing over people, not companies.

DRM these days is more an effort against resale than against piracy. After all, several compagnies have shown that it's not that hard to identify the pirates, and just sue all of them. (After sending a friendly reminder, of course)

Yet somehow they prefer to install backlash creating DRM that only annoys their own customers. (Making piracy more attractive)

Piracy is always attractive regardless of DRM. Look at the insidious shits who pirated the Humble Indie Bundle. That's right. The humble indie bundle. Nobly fighting against children getting money. Oh yeah, Game Dev Tycoon. Remember that? It schooled them as to why the fuck they would pirate an indie startup's game simply because they are thieves.

Not the point I was making. The point I was making was why compagnies seem so happy about utilizing useless DRM solutions, which annoy people and don't hurt pirates.

((The answer was: Because it allows them to stop resales, CD hiring, and allows them to lock everything to their own centralized patch and sale store. And of course, it allows them to market their DLC and limit modding)))

[shadenight123]

More than a 'don't pirate' or a 'pirate' the game, it's quite actually an issue of 'they're killing the market of reselling'.
I mean, without it, who the hell is going to keep on buying their games? Maybe you don't have the fifty bucks for the game out of the shelf, but the 'used' game might come off at fifteen, and you could buy that one. (or have a friend loan it to you for free)
They instead prefer the 'if you don't have fifty now, you wait one year, and then you buy it at fifteen'.
And let's face it, DRM is just the candy, DLC is even worse on that aspect. Once there was the GAME and there were the EXPANSIONS. Now you have the DLCs for pretty much extra missions and the likes.

Gaming industries are tightening the noose on themselves, the more they gasp for air and force the customer to follow their gimmicks the worse it will be.

You can't just expect someone to always have internet, the pc online and your database online.
What if Internet is gone? What if your database crashes? I paid for the game, I have the right to play the game even beneath the apocalypse and with no internet.
Since their answers are 'nope, sorry, not a chance' there lies the problem.

They expect people to bow because they want them to.
People don't bow to force. They never did and never will.
They bow to reason.

Instead of forcefully implanting DRM, they could add daily regular updates through online systems, creating a sort of 'you crack the game? You don't get the server's updates that add missions for free, and that stumps you because they aren't expansions, but regular updates'. They could make the game self-finance itself, by having real-life publicity implanted within, like 'Buy coke' when you're moving in a futuristic city or 'drive Ferrari' and the likes.

Instead of forcing the customer, they should work with the customer.

I wonder who the hell came up with the idea that 'DRM' was the solution.
If they want money, in-game publicity and online updates are the key

[kingfisher1112]

If people didn't pirate games, DRM to stop pirates wouldn't exist. The argument is that it's easy to crack and just stops the legitimate user. Then stop pirating, and stop disadvantaging the legitimate user. Honestly, I really hate pirates that try to justify it by saying that they are demoing it, or that it sucks and isn't worth paying for. My answer to that is the above, and that Pirates are screwing over people, not companies.

DRM these days is more an effort against resale than against piracy. After all, several compagnies have shown that it's not that hard to identify the pirates, and just sue all of them. (After sending a friendly reminder, of course)

Yet somehow they prefer to install backlash creating DRM that only annoys their own customers. (Making piracy more attractive)

Piracy is always attractive regardless of DRM. Look at the insidious shits who pirated the Humble Indie Bundle. That's right. The humble indie bundle. Nobly fighting against children getting money. Oh yeah, Game Dev Tycoon. Remember that? It schooled them as to why the fuck they would pirate an indie startup's game simply because they are thieves.

Not the point I was making. The point I was making was why compagnies seem so happy about utilizing useless DRM solutions, which annoy people and don't hurt pirates.

((The answer was: Because it allows them to stop resales, CD hiring, and allows them to lock everything to their own centralized patch and sale store. And of course, it allows them to market their DLC and limit modding)))

Oh, if that's your point then. I fully agree with you that companies should not be limiting the resale of games, or modding. For consoles this isn't a big deal, and steam actively encourages modding, and hell, you can give games on steam. Some ad-hoc PC resale market might appear one day where none existed on steam.

May I point out that first off: Pirating seems to be massively overstated in the damage it does to profits.
Second: Many pirates cannot afford the games, or buy them after pirating. Not saying all of them do, or, necessarily a majority, but that will have an impact on the statistics, because if you can't afford it, then you aren't gonna buy it, so they actually lose no money there. And if you buy it afterwards, they get the money anyway, but the statistics will say they didn't.
Third: The DRM causes many people to pirate, because they can't play the game normally, due to an intermittent internet or the like.

Piracy isn't as black and white as many people would have you believe.

So thievery is okay as long as people can't afford it? Hell, that sports car looked mighty nice.
And 10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB. 10%. It impacts more than you think, and if everybody adopts the visage that pirates are fighting nobly against big business evil companies, then nothing can be done.
In the case of GDT:
http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/
93.6%. Ninety three frickin percent. Those forum posts are gold. So pirates are poisoning the industry, with this jagged circle of " Pirate pirates, game devs make DRM, People turn to Piracy" the responsibility and blame of DRM does not lie on developers, but it does on Pirates. Thieves who want shit for free.

[10ebbor10]

May I point out that first off: Pirating seems to be massively overstated in the damage it does to profits.
Second: Many pirates cannot afford the games, or buy them after pirating. Not saying all of them do, or, necessarily a majority, but that will have an impact on the statistics, because if you can't afford it, then you aren't gonna buy it, so they actually lose no money there. And if you buy it afterwards, they get the money anyway, but the statistics will say they didn't.
Third: The DRM causes many people to pirate, because they can't play the game normally, due to an intermittent internet or the like.

Piracy isn't as black and white as many people would have you believe.

So thievery is okay as long as people can't afford it? Hell, that sports car looked mighty nice.
And 10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB. 10%. It impacts more than you think, and if everybody adopts the visage that pirates are fighting nobly against big business evil companies, then nothing can be done.
In the case of GDT:
http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/
93.6%. Ninety three frickin percent. Those forum posts are gold. So pirates are poisoning the industry, with this jagged circle of " Pirate pirates, game devs make DRM, People turn to Piracy" the responsibility and blame of DRM does not lie on developers, but it does on Pirates. Thieves who want shit for free.

theft is the taking of another person's property without that person's permission or consent with the intent to deprive the rightful owner of it.[

Piracy=/=theft. The original owner sustains no damage, except for a hypothetical loss of profits.

It's an copyright infringement, and illegal copying of information. Not theft however.

On another note, that data was day one data, before there are any reviews on forums or stuff. Seeing the recent flood of overhyped and often crappy games, many people have token a paranoid attitude to games.

Genuine version: 214 users
Cracked version: at least 3104 users

Not a very large statistical basis for anything. I'd like to see the current stats.

[ChairmanPoo]

And 10% of people reportedly pirated the HIB. 10%. It impacts more than you think

It seems to me that you're buying the industry's kool aid of "Each pirated copy equals one lost sale!". Which is simply not true.

[GlyphGryph]

Now lets be honest here, Kingfisher. Pirates are often dicks, doing dick things, but they aren't thieves - they aren't depriving anyone of anything they possess, which is an important attribute of thieving.

That said, I've never had anyone pirate any of my games, and I don't see it happening anytime soon, and in my opinion the damage the pirates have done is minimal compared to the damage the coporate rightsholders have done to, you know, things that are actually legitimately important, like the rule of law and whatnot.

But I honestly don't care if they stuff their games full of DRM. Better than abusing and twisting and corrupting the legal system, imo.

What most people don't realize is who piracy damages and how. They are stupid enough to think it hurts the people developing the product that got pirated (hah!). No, that's dumb, if they couldn't pirate your shit they'd pirate something else instead, and that's where the real danger comes from. It's not the $50 games that lose out to piracy, it's their $10 competitors that actually WOULD have been bought instead.