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[Vector]

No, I'm trying to tell you that male feminists often understand that most of the MRA issues stem from, or at the very least are related to, feminist problems ("Why are men the ones who have to do all this crap?  Oh, because we assume women are too weak to do it.  Huh.").  So a lot of people working for men's rights call themselves male feminists.

Basically, the difference is between thinking all of men's problems come from feminists, vs. going "huh, the dominant power structure is fucking all of us over; maybe we should do something about that."

[Xantalos]

No, I'm trying to tell you that male feminists often understand that most of the MRA issues stem from, or at the very least are related to, feminist problems ("Why are men the ones who have to do all this crap?  Oh, because we assume women are too weak to do it.  Huh.").  So a lot of people working for men's rights call themselves male feminists.

Basically, the difference is between thinking all of men's problems come from feminists, vs. going "huh, the dominant power structure is fucking all of us over; maybe we should do something about that."

See, that second thing sounds good.

[palsch]

Loud, that requires an incredibly narrow view of feminism.

Feminism is multiple collections of social theories, observations and policy viewpoints, depending on the flavour. Someone who is feminist is someone who agrees with some broad subset of these theories/observations/policies.

Many of these factors explicitly or implicitly address issues important to men as well as women.

If I were to take up what MRAs consider male issues the absolute best thing I could do is use feminist theory, where there is already a wealth of academic work done, as a starting point. Being a feminist in this sense is the most effective way to be an effective campaigner.

[Scoops Novel]

Semantics. Moving on.

[Willfor]

What Vector brought up is exactly why I labeled myself as male feminist in the last thread. I believe in egalitarianism, and the breaking down of the power structure that is holding women and men down.

Loud, that requires an incredibly narrow view of feminism.

Feminism is multiple collections of social theories, observations and policy viewpoints, depending on the flavour. Someone who is feminist is someone who agrees with some broad subset of these theories/observations/policies.

Many of these factors explicitly or implicitly address issues important to men as well as women.

If I were to take up what MRAs consider male issues the absolute best thing I could do is use feminist theory, where there is already a wealth of academic work done, as a starting point. Being a feminist in this sense is the most effective way to be an effective campaigner.

God damn, I wish I could present my opinions as well as you are able to.

[Loud Whispers]

Loud, that requires an incredibly narrow view of feminism.

Using the relevant definition:

Feminism--modern, third-wave feminism--is egalitarianism with a particular focus on the experiences of women.  I am a bit dismayed by the large number of folks in this thread who seem to think feminism is about demonstrating that women are ~better~.

No, I'm trying to tell you that male feminists often understand that most of the MRA issues stem from, or at the very least are related to, feminist problems ("Why are men the ones who have to do all this crap?  Oh, because we assume women are too weak to do it.  Huh.").  So a lot of people working for men's rights call themselves male feminists.

Basically, the difference is between thinking all of men's problems come from feminists, vs. going "huh, the dominant power structure is fucking all of us over; maybe we should do something about that."

Which is why I'd choose the latter, you do not confine yourself to blaming ills on the unrelated nor do you simply expand the crap to incur yet more suffering on all. You get shit done.

[Vector]

Right, that's the point.

Second-wave feminism. . . had lots of fucking problems.  Third-wave has its hat on straight enough that a lot of the activists for men's rights happily joined up, because the structure the feminists had already built helped the world make a lot more sense.  This means that the remaining people who call themselves "MRAs" (literally that title) are usually misogynists, kind of like a lot of the people who just wanted to pick people up do not call themselves pick-up artists.

So yeah, semantics.

[Scoops Novel]

Can you expand about the feminism wave's?

[Hár]

The problem is that, while you can see feminists protesting many things, show me where they were ever concerned that fewer men were going to college, for example. Or that American law makes cuckolded husbands pay for the children of a cheating wife, even after confirmed non-paternity.

It's not as simple as "feminists also protect men" because they clearly aren't very interested in the male side of the coin.

[Max White]

Ok so general understanding of the history of feminism, correct me where I am wrong, because there is no way my uneducated opinion is accurate.
1st wave: Clear cut goals. We want X, Y and Z where these things are easily measurable things and clear steps can be taken to achieve this. Might sound like things have gone down hill from some very great ideas, but you have to remember that 1st wave was pretty successful, and from there on clear cut goals are a little harder to come by.
2nd wave: Fight da power! And similar notions. Basically the idea that women shouldn't be subject to gender roles, well fair enough! So we are going to exclude women from these roles... Wait. Suddenly if a woman really is happy being the house wife while the guy brings home the bread, she is brainwashed by the patriarchy and needs to be liberated. Also something about burning bras. Despite this, they did a lot to promote the idea that you shouldn't stereotype people.
3rd wave: Kind of a mess really. We now have a lot of conflicting views on what is right and wrong within feminism. I've seen some groups for and some against pornography, for example. There is no real combined front, in favor of various different views. Still, an open marketplace for ideas such as this breeds (Occasionally) healthy debate and a positive step forward.

[Vector]

The problem is that, while you can see feminists protesting many things, show me where they were ever concerned that fewer men were going to college, for example. Or that American law makes cuckolded husbands pay for the children of a cheating wife, even after confirmed non-paternity.

It's not as simple as "feminists also protect men" because they clearly aren't very interested in the male side of the coin.

I'm sure you've read the reading of every feminist group out there?

No, feminists are not concerned that fewer men are now going to college.  This is because the inflated rates of female attendance are thanks to--surprise surprise--our credentials having less clout than a man's.  So for the same job, we need more education and experience to get it.  Also, you know, studies showing that the claims about men being disproportionately punished in school... girls are disproportionately punished for being loud, playing, or even moving at the preschool years.  Boys get the "boys will be boys" point of view, which forgives a lot of that.  So basically, if you're already taught to be quiet and not saying anything, no, you won't be punished as much in later years.  You've already been indoctrinated.

Let me put it this way: a lot of the MRA demands frankly, based on our best research, are wrong.  We need more nuanced research into things like male vs. female educational styles, and find out if the whole desire to separate classrooms by gender will result in "separate but equal" problems or comes from misogyny ("we can't have those beguiling females around our sons!").  We also need to, frankly speaking, start treating women and girls like viable research subjects, rather than a special interest group.

But yes, you're right.  The main concern of feminism is women, and though they aren't against men anymore, that sure as heck isn't the main focus of their efforts.  What I'm trying to say is that that's what male activists often call themselves, not necessarily that all of their aims will be satisfied that way.


First wave feminism: Suffrage now.  Also abolitionism.
Second wave feminism: Fuck being pregnant, barefoot, and in the kitchen!  Anyone who disagrees is a slave of the patriarchy!  Let's go be just like men!
Third wave feminism: There's nothing wrong with femininity as such.  What we should do is based on moral standards, not preconceived notions of gender.  And a lot of the moral standards are wrong because they encourage self-destructive behavior or, you know, general rape culture and so on.  And sexist oppression affects people differently depending on their situation inside other power structures.  We need to change media representation to describe oppressed groups as non-monolithic and unstereotyped, hold onto abortion and improve rape/domestic violence prosecution, and change a whole bunch of little things that are together coalescing into a miserable situation.

[Scoops Novel]

You mentioned difficulties in representation outside white upper and presumably middle class. Can you give more details?

[Vector]

Hmm, I think you should look up "womanist" for that reason.  That's basically the word used for "black feminism."  Sort of.  There's a variety of differences which you should go to the source for.

But there were also a lot of problems with kicking out transgendered people because they had, at some point, enjoyed male privilege.  But then they also kicked out butch women because they thought they were transgendered.  There was a lot of shit about what being a "real" woman meant in general.  Did black women count as "real women," even though they usually didn't have the usual crap about their sexual purity and so on discussed (correct answer: yes)?  It just sort of went on and on and on.

Then people figured out intersectionality, the idea that poor women will experience sexism differently from rich ones, fat women differently from thin ones, and so on and so forth.  So people are trying to get a better handle of how everything works in everyone's lives, because our research thus far has been very heavily restricted.

The motto of third wave feminism is "we're not equal until we're all equal."  Because if black women are still suffering from racism, then they aren't enjoying the benefits of equality.  And so on, and so forth.

[Max White]

So question. During what wave did the term "Womyn" arise?

[Scoops Novel]

Hmm, I think you should look up "womanist" for that reason.  That's basically the word used for "black feminism."  Sort of.  There's a variety of differences which you should go to the source for.

But there were also a lot of problems with kicking out transgendered people because they had, at some point, enjoyed male privilege.  But then they also kicked out butch women because they thought they were transgendered.  There was a lot of shit about what being a "real" woman meant in general.  Did black women count as "real women," even though they usually didn't have the usual crap about their sexual purity and so on discussed (correct answer: yes)?  It just sort of went on and on and on.

Then people figured out intersectionality, the idea that poor women will experience sexism differently from rich ones, fat women differently from thin ones, and so on and so forth.  So people are trying to get a better handle of how everything works in everyone's lives, because our research thus far has been very heavily restricted.

The motto of third wave feminism is "we're not equal until we're all equal."  Because if black women are still suffering from racism, then they aren't enjoying the benefits of equality.  And so on, and so forth.

Anyone paying much attention to that line?