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[Loud Whispers]

English: A beautiful language, so full of miscommunication.

[kaijyuu]

Like... I genuinely think that most people aren't all that stupid.  I don't think women expect men to be mind-readers.

I'm generally optimistic when it comes to people's intelligence, but on this particular point I am not. People (not just women; this isn't a gender specific thing) do assume others to be mind readers. They will whine and complain about a boring conversation they had with someone but never say to the person's face that they want to talk about something else. They will give fake smiles and courtesies and fume to themselves that the other person didn't realize they were upset.

Many, many people just plain aren't fucking honest to each other and get upset that others can't see through their lies. It's really grating at times.

[Vector]

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.  Like, obviously we have to overcome this programming.  But for a better world, we do need to permit and teach folks from a young age to set reasonable boundaries.

[Xantalos]

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.  Like, obviously we have to overcome this programming.  But for a better world, we do need to permit and teach folks from a young age to set reasonable boundaries.

I can support this.

[Max White]

She says she changed her mind in the middle.  No one is talking about enjoyment.  I'm not exactly sure why you're making this argument.

she told me that she remembered the early stages when everything was going fine and dandy, and the later stages when she was unhappy, but did not recall the transition between the two.

So it is pretty clear she had sex that she didn't enjoy, but at no point has it been made clear she had sex she didn't consent to, and yet...

But Max, how does him not realising she was no longer consenting make it not-rape?

It is NOT RAPE because at no point was consent revoked to the best of our understanding.

[Loud Whispers]

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.  Like, obviously we have to overcome this programming.

Speaking from across the ocean, here the reverse is true.

[Max White]

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.

I just want to clarify, make sure I understand what you are saying.
Women, because of cultural conditioning, can no longer expected to speak openly, and instead depend on people reading their minds?

Is that what you mean to imply?

[Scoops Novel]

English: A beautiful language, so full of miscommunication.

What did you expect from poets?

You're right, kaijyuu. However, it cant be understated as to the effect other people outside the conversation being present (discounting the person themselves) effects what you will and wont do. Max White, I'd argue that he isn't a rapist, not that it isn't rape to agiven sense of the word.

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.  Like, obviously we have to overcome this programming.

Speaking from across the ocean, here the reverse is true.

If you're British, i call bullshit. Sure their are those that exploit it, but they're generally outliers, at least in the younger age groups.

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.

I just want to clarify, make sure I understand what you are saying.
Women, because of cultural conditioning, can no longer expected to speak openly, and instead depend on people reading their minds?

Is that what you mean to imply?

It has limited relevance here, however given any number of things none of us know it's possible she may have been afraid to speak out, believing it was deliberate. We don't know, and don't get confrontational. It is true outside this context.

[DJ]

Consent, once given, stands until it's revoked or the act is finished. If she wanted him to stop, she should've told him to stop.

[kaijyuu]

True.  But women, in particular, are very strongly conditioned not to speak their mind and say anything that might make others think they are upset.

I just want to clarify, make sure I understand what you are saying.
Women, because of cultural conditioning, can no longer expected to speak openly, and instead depend on people reading their minds?

Is that what you mean to imply?

I think she's saying it's an exacerbating factor on top of general humanity's tendency to do so.

[Max White]

Consent, once given, stands until it's revoked or the act is finished. If she wanted him to stop, she should've told him to stop.

No you don't understand, she couldn't because The Patriarchy^tm! "No" means "No" but "Yes" also means "No" when I feel like it.

[DJ]

If you're intimate enough with someone to have sex with them, you're intimate enough to express your wishes.

[penguinofhonor]

No you don't understand, she couldn't because The Patriarchy^tm! "No" means "No" but "Yes" also means "No" when I feel like it.

See, this isn't an argument. Just saying "QFT" would have been more productive.

Please don't make a post like this again.

[Xantalos]

If you're intimate enough with someone to have sex with them, you're intimate enough to express your wishes.

Again nitpicking, but this is generally in a relationship, no? A drink-induced 'wham bam thank you ma'am isn't conducive to intimacy.

[scrdest]

I find the notion that you can rape someone without being aware of it rather absurd. If one does not consciously use physical force or threat thereof, and as such the other person is free to withdraw from participating anymore, how can that be rape?

Seems the definition as it stands is a problem, since it grants both parties a magical element Consentium, which may be withdrawn at any minute, turning a sexual act into a felony.

Perhaps the better bottom line would be a checklist of sorts:
- did both parties A and B start having sex willfully?
- did they remain willing throughout?
- if they didn't, did they have a possibility to stop participating?


*The wording is less than perfect, but it's pretty late here, and I can't think straight.