Why and when would you say sexism played to by women?
Sometimes you want something and there's only one way to get it, sometimes you want something and there's an easiest way to get it. A lot of women spend years and years pretending to be stupid because they learn early on that men don't like smart women (sorry dudes, but as a generalization it's true). They'd like to get married someday, so they learn to act dumb and sexy. The former case is generally in that vein.
How are they perceived by women?
Varies. For example, the years of self-starvation that many, many women undergo is seen as necessary and proper; similarly, wearing carcinogenic makeup and shoes that destroy your feet; a lot of it is seen as part of a man's rights, or needed to catch one because it's what's expected. Anything that could be considered "whorish" is seen with either pride (hey, she's getting what I wish I could have!) or disgust (what are THOSE women thinking, anyhow?!).
Why, at least in the youth, do the more successful of these appear to be seen as idols rather then as subjects of pity, and given the prevalence of gossip and tabloids, long after?
In my high school Paris Hilton and Britney Spears were running jokes, so there you have it. They're just as often seen as targets of ridicule as idol-worship. Simply put, you see them as your idol, off making money rather than just being a Tired Old Mom, or you see them as stupid, cosseted, ignorant animals with loose morals. People are taught not to see those sorts of women as human. Their bodies belong to the public eye. Their decisions belong to the public eye. The constant stream of photographs and articles on their whereabouts and sexualized imagery leads people to see them not as humans with boundaries, but as objects (there is literally research on the tendency to process women the same way that folks process non-animate objects, increasing with greater sexualization).
Remember all those fucking images of women with their heads cut off and only their bodies shown, or grown women posed with baby-doll lips, or women shown as accessories to a man's success, almost like a handbag dangling on his arm? All those images with the butts and boobs sticking out, all that cheesecake? They have a real impact on the way folks see people!
Is there a break off point in this perception between the youth and younger women, and those older? What shape does it take?
Dunno. I think there are probably more conservative views among older women, who understand that the "idols" won't be able to keep their game up after they turn thirty and will have gotten quite the reputation for themselves. So the "respect" option's not all that open any more, for most folks.
Is confiding on your thoughts on sexism and gender roles ever a part of your friendly relationships with the opposite sex, and how much?
It's common for me, because I'm so fucking pissed about it and it's a fast litmus test to figure out who's dangerous to me and who isn't. But mostly because I've got a big mouth and have never been good at covering over my real feelings. Let me be honest: I have PTSD from a bad former relationship. I don't have the time or ability to build up friendships with people who will then turn around and fuck me over when I need them, because the result is often days of lost productivity and a feeling of being just slightly weaker. Older, more tired, a little bit readier to step into my grave. Bit crazier.
I'll talk about stuff that happens around math, because that's not subtle and is pretty much not something most folks will argue with me about (though they will try to convince me that various things like discouraging me from a PhD on, as I mentioned, commitment grounds are normal; but that can't strike at any part of myself that really hurts). I don't talk about the results of that on my psychology and how I've spent the last decade or so at varying degrees of suicidal, to the point of being used to it; I don't talk about how I used to be a flaming misogynist, and just how much I reviled myself, and how a man cleverly used that against me; I don't talk abortion and how I started being scared of being pregnant pretty much the minute it was possible. I don't talk about how I barely went outside alone until the age of seventeen because first I was too young, and then I was in the age range when you're most likely to be grabbed off the street (rather than merely raped by someone you know). I don't talk about what it's like to be a woman who isn't feminine or pretty, and what it's like getting mocked by other women for it; or what it's about being flat-chested in the "real women have curves" sort of world, and frequently told by well-meaning people that I had better'd eat more or that it doesn't matter if they grab my boobs, because I'm pretty much a guy. I don't talk about what it's like saying that I don't want children and being told that I'll change my mind by random folks, or that I'd better give up on being a vegetarian because I'm going to be pregnant someday.
I generally don't tell these things to people of the same sex either, though, because I don't know that many women who have experienced life quite like I have. Feeling safe is not a thing that happens all that often.
There's more, but anyway, I'm telling you because you solicited the information, and I presume that anyone who tries to use it against me here will have at least one person other than myself jump down his or her throat.
How common are friendly, and more importantly also close, relationships with the opposite sex, both for you and society at large?
For me, friendly relationships are very common with the opposite sex. My closest relationships have also been with the opposite sex (though I wouldn't say I have many close relationships; when I'm in trouble, I turn to myself and don't expect anyone else to help me out).
For others... it's hard. It's a lot easier to make your way into majority-male groups, as a teenager at the least, if you hate women. There's a lot of documentation of this (anecdata). You prove that you're "not like all the rest of those bitches" and assert, over and over again, that you're somehow better. You make misogynistic jokes. You accept it when they start using male pronouns on you. But you'll never really be part of the group, somehow. That's the way it's felt to me, at any rate.
In college, I hung out with a group of male PhD students of various varieties thanks to someone I was dating. Ate lunch and dinner with them every night, whether he was there or not. Sat through the inevitable misogyny and "taboo humor" mostly launched at women and poor people. But I wasn't asked to stuff. They'd rationalize--if he wanted me there, he'd ask me to come with him. So it didn't matter if I spent six months with them cracking jokes and being supportive, whatever. We weren't going to be friends. I wasn't going to be asked to stuff, and the ex pretended it wasn't happening.
I don't know many women with really close male friends. There are some, to be sure. Definitely. It can be hard, though.
Why are some women either unaware or uncaring of less direct sexism, such as gender roles, status, and social pressures?
Some people decide they've got a good deal. Others--I think most--have internalized the feeling that they're getting what's coming to them for being stupid, seductive, whorish, worthless wastes of space. We're given one model of what a woman is supposed to be like, and she's lavished with monetary and romantic success. We aren't shown that women can be other things, and we're told that she's successful because she was sexy but not sexual, and then succumbed to the right man and bore him children. And that's it. End of the line.
Did you know that the "heroine's journey" as outlined by Joseph Campbell (the "hero's journey" guy) goes as follows: a woman is threatened. She is told by a greater force: "have sex with me." If she says yes, she gets to live. If she says no, she becomes inert: she is killed, she is turned into a tree or rock, in any case she is turned into an object. And that's it. That's what the stories for our daughters have been, for hundreds of years! And that's what's passed on in traditional media! They say: "Lucy wanted this because she was a nice little girl" and so on. Literally. It's tagged. And because there's usually only
one girl in most modern mainstream stories (smurfette principle, etc.), and she tends to follow an appropriate cardboard cutout personality, we understand that she's a standin for the symbol: "FEMININITY." And that's the way it goes. On and on! Endlessly!
And our heroes are suppressed and covered by history. And we're forgotten about. We're expected to smile as folks keep on explaining that women have never done anything interesting, probably because of our strange hormonal cycles or something. That's the way I feel--I hate that this is happening to us, and I want it to be different. That's why I spend so much time on this forum, and other places, trying to convince folks that there is really a Big Problem out there.
What tension's in day to day life does resistance manifest in (a given example being dressing as unsexualised as possible if wishing to be treated seriously, and problems arising otherwise)?
Well, I'm a gal with short hair and a bit of an attitude. I wear skirts down to my ankles, buttoned up blouses with long sleeves, and usually a big coat over all of that, sometimes with a vest, too. And leather boots I shine myself. No makeup, nail polish, or jewelry; do have glasses, though. I've never paid for a hair cut, spa day, or styling session of any sort. Never even been into any of those places.
Can't stand the use of the time, though I enjoy the results of other folks' beautification efforts.
I want dates, but not from people who want sex out of me. At this point, I'm tired of flirting and politely giggling at bad jokes.
(I look like a dork, but I usually think I look cool)
Mostly, it's that I don't really bother to feminize my body language anymore or intentionally act small. I used to be willing. I used to be willing to flatter. I'm not willing to pretend to be stupid anymore. It's just not worth it. I get so tired of sitting down in classrooms and being treated like a joke, or a shock; I'm tired of meeting new people and playing myself down rather than acting confident for fear that I'll be called haughty or uppity.
I speak seven languages, play two musical instruments, have a math degree and might as well have another degree in comparative literature, have published a book, many, many hundreds of hours of community service, and have ridiculous test scores. Obviously I do not tell anyone about any of these things. I'm not talking about just hiding one's blatant achievements. I'm talking about going "Oh teehee, I'm so
stupid! Hahahahaha. I wish I were as smart as
you, heehee!"
When I was younger, I used to speak about an octave above my natural range so that people would find me less intimidating. Don't do that anymore. I can't even speak there, really. Used to, I don't know, practice making my facial expression softer and more pleasing. Don't do much of that anymore, either. Less luck with dudes, but my self-esteem's a lot better.
I'm not sure what else to say, here.
How many, how early, and in what ways do women chafe against baseline gender roles?
Lots, plenty early (for example... transgendered people! But I'll assume you're not talking about trans folks, and I don't want to pretend I can speak to their experiences anyway). Ever since I was very young I'd tell my parents I wanted to be a boy so I wouldn't have to have children.
(They told me I was selfish)
My heroes as a kid were Lancelot and Sherlock Holmes. I wanted to be a great scientist or mathematician or inventor, and I understood that that was improbable if one was a gal, so I wanted to be a dude as much as possible; then I swung all the way around to the other side. What ways
didn't I chafe against gender roles? I don't know, really, what I'd say. I've always been very bad at following orders.
Why do they, or (bearing in mind they are dissatisfied with it) do not, take action?
The backlash can be unbearable. Being unable to be your true self can be unbearable, too. Folks have to find a balance that works for them.
What levels of action are they generally prepared to take, and how many women fall into each of these respective broad categories?
Dunno, I have only anecdata, not statistics. But folks will do just about anything you might imagine.
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Topic: Sexism Thread #23 (Read 19589 times)