... This will be updated with 3 questions for every page of this thread, from each of those pages. (Yes, it's an exaggeration.)
TL:DRWhy and when would you say sexism played to by women? How are they perceived by women? Why, at least in the youth, do the more successful of these appear to be seen as idols rather then as subjects of pity, and given the prevalence of gossip and tabloids, long after?Is there a break off point in this perception between the youth and younger women, and those older? What shape does it take? Is confiding on your thoughts on sexism and gender roles ever a part of your friendly relationships with the opposite sex, and how much? How common are friendly, and more importantly also close, relationships with the opposite sex, both for you and society at large? Why are some women either unaware or uncaring of less direct sexism, such as gender roles, status, and social pressures? What tension's in day to day life does resistance manifest in (a given example being dressing as unsexualised as possible if wishing to be treated seriously, and problems arising otherwise)?
How many, how early, and in what ways do women chafe against baseline gender roles? Why do they, or (bearing in mind they are dissatisfied with it) do not, take action? What levels of action are they generally prepared to take, and how many women fall into each of these respective broad categories?
(
Work in progress- Nominally finished, but if any questions don't make sense, please let me know.)
Please cite any questions you're answering.
Here lies the original versions, and sum total of the questions from this thread, and the women in the military thread. I've done the best i can with the spoilers, and it's mostly internally consistent. Work in progress Jesus Christ that took a while, and saying that was worth indulging the reflex.(Questions from the previous women in the military thread, referring to the commonality of gender biases in university's and the sciences)
I'm familiar with it. How prevalent is the next question there. Out of curiosity, are confiding's on gender roles and the likes ever a part of any of your male and female relationships, particularly the less closely attached ones? How much? For that matter, how prevalent are (in the general populace) the relationships themselves? It's appears to be a rarity to have anywhere near the number of close-knit friends of your gender with the other. Lastly, how's the question barrage? I've always found it a good way of killing threads, myself.
[spoiler](Vector's answer)
And here open the goats of heaven
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Re: Your opinion on women in the military?
« Reply #277 on: May 21, 2013, 01:56:39 pm »
Most successful women in mathematics have male relatives who already have math PhDs, in my experience. That is, they have someone to talk to about math, because through middle school and high school the boys won't talk to them unless they're fawning (not fucking kidding about this). It's very hard to learn any math when the more successful you are, the smaller the pool of people to discuss your notions with is. It's also very hard when in order to talk to someone, you're expected to humiliate yourself and make yourself look as small and harmless as possible. When you get to college, you won't have that problem, but folks will be *shocked* if you're marginally competent.
Add to that all of the "scientific" "research" trying to explain to you just why little old you can work as hard as you want, but you'll never succeed. The goalposts always move. If the average woman is just as capable as the average man at math, then they'll start saying that the problem is that you have to be really above average, and there just aren't any women who can do that. Whatever problem you have, they'll blame it on you. Never mind the great female mathematicians of yesteryear, and never mind the talented women today, and never mind that women pioneered the very closely related field of computer science. You're a girl. You're incapable. Studying math is a waste of your life, because you'll never, ever make it. So why not go have babies?
Remember that story about a woman who was denied tenure and is still being questioned 15 years later as to her right to teach? The undergraduates pass this story around between them. The women get the message that they'd better sit down and shut up until they're being considered for tenure, because before that any complaint of sexism will ruin their career chances with all the rumor-mongering.
There's also knowledge that being a woman means you will be seen less successful than a man with the same credentials. So I might as well have a B- average.
More than that, I guess, is the information constantly being sent my way that everything is my fault. I am smart. I am talented. And fuck it, I am really good at math. I'm consistently the sharpest person in the room. I solve problems six times faster than the average Berkeley undergraduate, and if I were anyone else I'd probably be getting preferential treatment and deference. In male math students, being bad at computation is a sign of exceptional genius. For female math students, being bad at anything is considered a sign of being unexpectedly stupid.
Quote from: Novel on May 21, 2013, 01:42:50 pm
How prevalent is the next question there.
Very. Prevalent enough that the American Mathematical Society pioneered a global study in gender differences in mathematics, correlated to local stereotypes about who was better (in Arab countries, the stereotype is that women are better). Unsurprisingly, taken globally there was no difference in skill and disparities followed stereotype locally. This is... a big deal. Mathematicians generally just want to stick to mathematics.
Quote from: Novel on May 21, 2013, 01:42:50 pm
Out of curiosity, are confiding's on gender roles and the likes ever a part of any of your male and female relationships, particularly the less closely attached ones? How much?
I've learned that it's generally not a good idea to talk to people about it, especially when you don't know them all that well. Folks have, for example, tried to convince me that people think I'm stupid because I'm ugly, not because I'm female (while interrupting me to the point where I couldn't get a string of six words out). Or laughed about how of course more women should go into math, because lots of mathematicians still need wives.
To be honest, I have very few female friends (that's the math track for you!). In general, I've found it's safest to talk to Gender and Women's Studies or History majors, but there's a couple of math dudes who are okay. What I'm trying to say is, those are the ones I'd probably be able to speak to without thinking about it.
Quote from: Novel on May 21, 2013, 01:42:50 pm
For that matter, how prevalent are (in the general populace) the relationships themselves? It's appears to be a rarity to have anywhere near the number of close-knit friends of your gender with the other.
No idea, but again--almost all of my friends, close and otherwise, are men. I have two close female friends and have a lot of female not-so-close friends, who would probably be supportive but wouldn't... I dunno, get it.
Re
(My next question, request for clarification, and clarification)
(Me)
That last bit is what i was after. Why?
(Vector)
Why what?
(Me)
Why don't they get it?
(Vector's answer, i would like more depth and explanation of the lack of understanding/rebellion)
The women?
This era is supposed to be over. Not only that, but most people don't care that people think they're stupid at math. It doesn't really affect their lives. . . it's sort of like this arcane thing out there. In most fields, the whole sexualization/nonsexualization thing reveals a tension between being respected and having people think you're a slut/prudish/whatever. In mathematics, I intentionally desexualize because I want people to perceive me as masculine. When I didn't, I'd inevitably be flirted with; folks didn't feel comfortable talking to me about math. Women who really take it up to the nines have people assume that they're total idiots and get constant offers of help. Not "would you like to work on this together," but "oh, I'll show you how to do that!" But in the economics department, where the gal came from, it was probably a symbol of power. But when I leave the math department, I'm mocked for how I dress and act.
*shrug*
It's very different problems, like how black women don't have their sexuality put on a pedestal, but rather are assumed to be in an insatiable sexual frenzy all the time. I mean, what I'm saying is, feminism as we usually see it refers to the experiences of white women, when black women often have the opposite problems. Similarly, a lot of the interpretations of women are a bit different in mathematics.
(This thread's questions)
Vector, why and when would you say sexism is played to by woman? It's fairly obvious it happens, but I'd like to know more on why, and how they're perceived by women. I find it strange how at least in the youth they appear to be seen as idols rather then as subjects of pity. Is there a break off point between the perception of this in teens/20's and adults?
(1st question on this thread, referencing previous women in the military thread)
Well, to kick this off, i was hoping Vector could go into more details about tensions, as well as how and how common it is to react adversely to the baseline gender roles, and why they do or do not take action or alternately twig on.
(Clarification of above question)
Specifically, how many, and how early, do women chafe against baseline gender roles (as well as how), how many are oblivious, and why they do or do not take action. How many women support each of the extents of action. Lastly, please develop the common causes of tension between societal expectations and pressures and women. You gave the example of dressing as unsexualised as possible in the previous thread if wishing to be taken seriously.
[/spoiler]
And that's it. I've bolded all my questions.
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Topic: Sexism Thread #23 (Read 20173 times)