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[Xantalos]

Transmute spine to adamantine.

[Xanmyral]

Magic is set by the rules of the universe, applying broad definitions for it is folly. And this is dancing around the issue, everything can die if given stats, but something shouldn't invalidate the existence of other classes.

[Rolepgeek]

...there's a set of classes actually called 'mundane'. That should tell you something about the validity of classes...

Besides the fact that in DnD a 13th level cleric is usually better at farming than a professional commoner/expert farmer, untrained.

There are tiers of classes for a reason. And 'Oh look I can carve myself a pretty stick now' invalidates what other classes, exactly?

[Remuthra]

Story > Mechanics

[Xanmyral]

Tiers are terrible. There should be roles, not tiers. The existence and proliferation of tiers truly irks me to no end.

Comparing a level 13 and a level three, at most, is a silly outlook. And D&D is that 'certain' game I was talking about.

And the whittling is pointless, its what that spell implies.

Tiers should only exist where it makes sense, and the scope of them should be confined to that which they derive from. An archmage is better than a mage, and a master blacksmith is better than a proficient blacksmith, but when the tiers start dipping over and invalidating other entire tiers, then there's problems.

[Rolepgeek]

Look, what I'm saying that there are mending spells. And stone-shaping spells. And sword-launching spells. Magic accomplishes things that can be done by no other means in addition to ones that can be accomplished in more mundane ways. While yes, roles are typically better than tiers, nobody wants to be the one fulfilling the 'Apple Farmer' role. PCs and Villains are a cut above the rest. Being able to carve a stick(which I could get fairly good at through mere practice, by the way) breaks the game in no way.

Besides which, you ignored what I said about the degree of skill it might impart. I won't become a legendary wood carver from a spell. I might become about as good as a smith fresh out of apprenticehood, but that's about the most you could reasonably expect to become with mere magic. Plus, magic takes quite a bit out of you, and who knows how long it might last.

[Xanmyral]

There's nothing wrong with magic doing things others simply can't, that should be the case for most roles. Its when a role completely engulfs another role in functionality and ability that problems arise. There are games that get this right, and games that do not sadly.

Who would play an apple farmer? That's a moot point and beside the topic. I never stated carving a stick would break the game, I said that being able to impart knowledge permanently would.

That's the thing, if it was rudimentary at max and/or temporary, then that's fine. Its when its permanent and/or it could reach any heights that it becomes a problem. But it does raise questions as to why anyone goes through the process of apprenticeship in the first place if it can simply be imbued with magic.

EDIT: Fixan' poor grammar and silly structuring.

[Remuthra]

Rarity of magic, and costs involved. With enough power you can do anything, but the problem is getting access to that power.

And I would play an Apple Farmer . Remind me to use that as my class when I die and respawn.

[Xanmyral]

While true, it does bring into question the rarity and costs. If magic is obviously a trump card, why isn't it more prolific? If it costs only stamina, then why isn't it more wide spread due to the little overhead? If it is only down to a few, why isn't it guarded harshly? Thing is, its when there's poor role protection and improper story integration that I mainly have problems with.

Magic was powerful in Dragon Age, but only a few had it. What did they do, let them go about their way? They sequestered them and corralled them because of the dangers even one mage could present. Magic there also had a danger and a cost involved beyond that of simply the person involved. This is what I consider proper story integration. Magic is powerful but few, so obviously it wouldn't be left free to roam, it would be a terrible upset to nations and seated power.

[Remuthra]

If you read the lore, the reason is that practicing advanced magic is very dangerous. The reason there's so few wizards is that the rest died due to spell-related mishaps.

[Rolepgeek]

In this setting, magic is quite prolific. Remember when I asked if there were any countries whose word for 'noble' and 'mage' were the same? Ross said there were several. So....

[Xanmyral]

I was more speaking in general terms than of this particular setting.

I never stated improper integration was a part of Ross' setting, he's done it pretty well from what I've seen. The truly powerful magic (wizards) are a whole different thing and breed, more akin to demigods than comparison to mages (what I was talking about), who are much more common compared to them.

EDIT: To be honest, I was speaking in general, overarching terms this whole conversation. Sorry if I wasn't clear on that, I figured it implied properly but such things are hard in a text medium.

And on the noble == mage thing, funny thing I was actually writing about how in a setting where magic is powerful, anyone could learn it, and the costs weren't too severe, the only way to make sense of it not being prolific was due to elitism/hoarding of power and/or oligarchical/political/guild-like organizations. So I've no problem with that, because its properly integrated.

[Rolepgeek]

Yeah, but the costs are often pretty severe, and magic still can't do everything(unless you're a Wizard). At least not all the time. Plus, not everyone has the talent necessary; sure, anyone can be an artist, but that doesn't mean everyone can paint Mona Lisa.

[Remuthra]

For a more direct metaphor, science dictates it's completely possible to transmute one element into another, and yet our industry doesn't involve fusion.

[Xanmyral]

We're picking back up on this then? Fair enough, although I'm afraid I won't have long to spend on it today (I'd be surprised at a second post on the subject today), have studying and Dark Souls to do. Finals are coming up, after all.

Anyway, I feel we've drifted from the original topic, but its an interesting tangent none the less. World building is always something I find interesting.

To be frank, most people don't have talent for many things right off the bat. Those who excel far in the field aren't those with natural talent, but more often simply those with the persistence to pursue that which they wish. Its simply a matter of practice, and if the skill is useful it will draw those with that persistence.

Am I saying everyone will be a full fledged mage? Nah, most wouldn't care to, but in the same way history and mathematics are taught as a staple in the educational system, I wouldn't be surprised to see a society where any formal education has that of, at the least, basic magic. Considering basic magic is a required course to be an adventurer, I wouldn't be surprised if it would be the same for any who's from a university (assuming such or its kin exist, which is likely). Thus the more urban the environment, the less magic is jealously guarded, the more minor magics you'll see pervade the society. Why wouldn't you pick up a basic spell or two if it would be really helpful, after all? Who says you have to go full bar into it.

Of course, that would bring about regulation depending on the spells which are taught, how they can be used, circumstances, perhaps prohibited spells to be learned by typical society (probably similar in how crossbows were banned for a period of time, although I don't believe many listened to the decree if I recall).

Considering the sheer density of magic in Ross' setting, I wouldn't be surprised if this was the case in some fashion. Military standard enchantment requires a work force far larger than just a few, after all, specially if it was as dangerous as you play it out to be. Its been pointed out that the mages in our group far outstrip those typically found, so unless you guys can enchant literal tons of equipment in one go, chances are that large magical workforce is a reality.