Responses to Leafsnail:I explained why Vector's actions only make sense for scum (unless lynching a cop is a townie thing to do)
Leafsnail, this phrase reads odd to me. I'm under the impression that lynching some particular role is only scummy if you know someone has that role--which I didn't. That would be why I lynched him.
As a quick side note, I found Lenglon's reaction to RangerCado's claim fairly convincing, while Shinigami's seems a little more forced.
Hmm, I hadn't noticed. More evidence against TWS.
Lastly, I find Vector's silence on this whole matter baffling. I think she may have been hoping that with Ford quiet, nobody would notice what Dem was doing.
I didn't notice what he was doing! I'd like to note that most of the arguments through this game against me have been "I expect Vector to play such-and-such way but she did something else," or "I thought Vector was more observant than that." This is bullshit. The position of IC has been loaded up with far too much baggage and mythos about how "good" players play and what they do.
No, I am not perfect. But folks can scumhunt me and reaction test just the same as they would everyone else.
The problem with this is that it pits the ICs against each other, where what is important is not
scumtells but the ability to give off the illusion of being
perfect.
Well, anyway. This isn't a complaint at you in particular.
Vector: Why did she keep voting someone even after her (sole) original reason for voting him was shown to be wrong?
My answer is that she realized he was the actual cop, and still had to die.
Because what I thought he did was claim a role that didn't exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched. Instead, he appeared to claim a role that does exist in order to save his scummy ass, when he was nowhere near being lynched. Basically, the difference between making a stupid mistake and being scummy, vs. just being scummy.
Why didn't she bring up Dem's strange willingness to shorten the day? She mentioned that Dem was scummy earlier for "playing to the crowd", but when Dem brought up the shorten request she simply went along with it.
My answer is that she didn't want to bring up something so damning for her partner.
Because I didn't notice what he was doing.
Looking back on it, I also don't like the "Cado's probably town and the actual cop but we have to lynch him anyway because ~reasons~" thing she's got going on either. Examples:
In #409 she says that her gut says Cado is town but he should be lynched anyway because
In #443 onwards she says that the most likely scumteam is Ford/Dem, but doesn't bother to question them and instead keeps trying to get someone she thinks is town (and therefore possibly the only town power role) lynched
I didn't question Ford because he was already up for replacement, IIRC, or at the very least had been absent for a very, very long time. Demdemeh had just replaced in and more of his stuff seemed off than the other players, but I didn't get a really strong scummy feeling off of him.
This game is a balance between the mind and the heart. I know that sounds like total bullshit, but let me explain. There's what you think by instinct and feeling, and what you think based on logic. Gut said Cado was telling the truth. Logic said Cado was lying. There was absolutely no evidence I could find for my gut feeling, and plenty of reason to think he was lying, or quite probably could be lying. And I knew that if he was alive, then this question would probably dominate the rest of the game. Was he lying? In another game (Magic Mafia), I had been
certain he was telling the truth, instinctively so. This meant that my gut was not trustworthy in this case.
Beyond that, process of elimination gave me a very small pool of targets. Cado had been scummiest in his tenure,
by far, and every question I asked him made me more logically certain that he was scum.
Maybe you aren't a conflicted sort of person, Leafsnail, but I'm trying to play transparently and go through my entire thought process for those of us who are. Part of that involves this sort of conflict. I lynched someone who I
thought was scum, but not someone who I
felt was scum. I like these two things to be in accord, because usually when they are, then it's the right lynch. This time, I was wrong.
a) Several times you state that Ranger is not amongst your prime suspects, and probably is the real cop. However, you seem to imply there's some kind of hidden reason why you should lynch someone even if you believe them to be the strongest town role in the game. What is this reason? Does it really outweigh the fact that you're killing the town's most reliable means of finding scum?
Ugh. Please see above--I wasn't very clear with my language D1.
You didn't play in Magic Mafia, right? As
town, Ranger lied multiple times--really big whoppers, like "I'm a rolecop, and here are my results on you"!--without anyone having any idea about it. I had
absolutely no idea. He also had a habit of lying when under fire, again, with no one the wiser. This caused me to give no consideration to my gut instincts, because even if they're usually right, I had evidence that when it comes to Cado, they weren't worth paying any attention to. This is something I mentioned multiple times throughout the end of that day.
"Then why mention them at all?"
Well, because I'm ICing and it would have helped my game a lot when I first started to get a clearer discussion of thinking and feeling, that's why. And also because it wasn't true that I "believed" him to be scum, or that I didn't believe that. The situation was more complicated than could be adjudicated using that one word.
b) Four other players (birdy51, griffinpup, Griffionday and Lenglon) all arrived at the conclusion that lynching a cop claim day one is not a tactically sound move. However, not only did you fail to arrive at this conclusion yourself (which I believe you to be more than capable of doing), you also failed to properly engage with any of the arguments these four players made with regards to not lynching a cop day one. You did jump in with a quick "gotcha" on Griffionday accidentally saying town instead of scum, and attacked the flaws in Lenglon's less developed argument, but you didn't actually attempt to respond to the wider argument about lynching a cop claim day one being a bad move. Why?
Why yes, it is not a net positive to lynch an important town power role D1! God, I'm glad I've been playing this game for four years so that I got a chance to say that.
However, you're acting like he was a CT, and we were all standing around going "huh, should we lynch this cop or not?" Maybe it was obvious to you that he wasn't lying. It wasn't obvious to me. Hell, I was
pretty convinced he was lying, because why the hell would he panic and claim with only three not-so-serious votes on him if he wasn't scum? Stupid town? Then why did he keep saying more stupid, scummy shit the more I pressed him?
The
only thing out of line with my read on him was my gut feeling, and I did my best to rule that out because there were
very compelling reasons to assume it incorrect.
2. In post #456, you call Dem scummy. However, why did you only bring up this comparatively minor point when Dem was at that point not voting for someone they had repeatedly stated they thought was the mafia rolecop? Furthermore, didn't you think it odd that they agreed to shorten at the time they did?
Completely escaped my notice. Dem felt bad, but there was nothing I could really put my finger on.
The shortening seemed
strange to me because they're uncommon, but I figured that hey, the day was wearing on and no one was getting anywhere, it was a good call. What I didn't notice was where his vote was.
Let me know if there's anything I missed. I'll get to TheWetSheep soon... my mother has apparently decided we're doing something.