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[birdy51]

Sigh, i didn't want to do this but its come down to it. If i wait, theres no telling if it'll be too late or not.

To help the Town, I am the Cop. Cue your questions.

Well. I suppose I can stop working on my "DIE SCUM!!!" essay now...

I was not expecting my suspicions were going to amount to this. That is a very, very big claim my good man. I'm probably one of the bigger reasons to have caused this claim, so I won't shy away from asking a question or two now.

Ranger, let's play the game where we assume you are telling the truth. What made you think I could not be assauged from my suspicions?

[RangerCado]

Birdy: Everytime i've addressed you, you've been fully against me. You say you think theres some hidden meaning behind everything i ask you, you think that assessing your knowledge and character makes me scummy, and you've given no indication of moving from your position. Its like everyone believes i must be lieing through my teeth again, even before this claim.

[Vector]

Birdy has only talked to you a couple of times.  Hell, Birdy has only posted a couple of times.  Large law of small numbers.

[griffinpup]

Let's think rationally from this point, guys.  There's two possibilities.  Either he's a...
Stupid Mafia or a Stupid Cop.
We should work out each scenario and find out what's the best thing to do in each of them.  I'll post my opinions of what to do in a bit.

[birdy51]

Yes Vector, but most of my posts did deal rather heavily with him. You'll note that he's been a bit of a private obsession for me.

Griffinpup is right on this one this one though.

Unvote.

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

I just didn't quite realize that there could be reasons that a Townie would have to deceive a fellow...


Regardless, let's get the scenarios out on the table.

If RangerCado is scum:

A. We lynch him now, and verify when his job flips.
B. We let him live and keep tabs on him. If we are made suspicious again, we can always lynch him later. He's

If RangerCado is a Cop:

A. We lynch him anyways, and verify on the job flip. He's marked himself for the night kill.
B. We don't kill him, and have the jailer protect him/ inhibit him from doing anything, hopefully blocking one the Night kill at the cost of him not getting information.
C. We don't kill him and don't protect him. Gives him a chance to do research and do something to prove that he's not blowing hot air. On the other hand, this leaves him open for a night kill. If he's night killed, we can reasonably assume he's the cop anyways.


My own gut feeling is leaning towards the idea he is a Cop... No member of the Mafia would be so stupid as to fakeclaim this early. It would be Refuge in Audacity to the extreme. Even if he does live through this night, he's permanantly on our radar. Rather, it is my firm belief that RangerCado is an extremely foolish Cop who's now forced our Jailer into a game of WIFOM with Team Scum.

That's my first perspective on this situation anyways.

[griffinpup]

Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario:
This scenario has the obvious drawback of lynching the cop if Cado is telling the truth.  Unless we can't find another alternative, we shouldn't do this.

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

PPE

[Vector]

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

This is tunneling.

[birdy51]

Honestly, he's right. I was not going to let up on the gas. It was my intention to create a catalogue of his tiny inconsistencies and ultimately have him lynched.

This is tunneling.

Yes. It is. I won't deny it. He had attracted my suspicions, and has since suffered from them.

[Vector]

Why did you decide to tunnel?

[Griffionday]

Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario:
This scenario has the obvious drawback of lynching the cop if Cado is telling the truth.  Unless we can't find another alternative, we shouldn't do this.

Don't Lynch-The-Idiot Scenario: 
This provides us with a lot of different things that could take place.  The jailkeeper, if there is one, plays a huge role in it as well.  Let's assume there is a jailkeeper, for argument's sake.  We don't lynch Cado, and he goes through the night alive.  He then claims who he inspected in the night, and the read.  If there is a jailkeeper, then they say whether he's telling the truth or not, either by staying silent or role-claiming.  Assuming Cado doesn't die in the night, we get a confirmation on his claim, one way or another.  Pretty much, a huge case of WIFOM that the jailkeeper gets to deal with.

PPE

So it essentially comes down to WIFOM now or WIFOM later.  The problem is; if he messes up his guess on whether or not the jail-keeper targets him, then the jail-keeper needs to claim in order to force a lynch.  Now yes, the jail-keeper could keep quiet, but this shifts us back into the same position we are now: we have no way to verify his claim.

Now personally, I'm against forcing two of our power roles into the open for town to pick off.  This means our options boil down to lightening up on him and see if he becomes less scummy as the game progresses, or not, and lynching him for a fool.

I've no qualms with the latter path.

[birdy51]

Overexcitement. When RangerCado seemed a bit fishy to me, I pushed the advantage. Small things began to add up that just didn't sit right with me. He was being evasive. This didn't sit right with me. So I increased the pressure.

When he turned and voted for me, I took that as the final sign that there is something more. I gave him a what I considered a final gambit and asked him to take his time with it, as I felt it was vital that he give me a straight answer. He responded in about four hours, failing to convince me. I considered that the final straw to start building the lynch case proper. I'll quote this all so you don't have go back and reread.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

What led to the final gambit:

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

I'll address this first.

I simply don't feel that Dem is a truly valid target. Him not being around has been an issue, but that doesn't automatically mean he's scumtell. With all the pressure on him already, I would have let others keep on him and focus on other matters. This is my own reasoning on the subject.

To the second point, people have blamed you about not being aggressive enough. This is a relative opinion however. I personally haven't been bothered in the slightest on whether you are aggressive enough or not. Defensive... Aggressive... Both are adjectives that are a bit unreliable. You can have a Defensive Cop attempting to avoid being knocked out of the game early, and you can have an Aggressive scum trying to fit in with the town. At the end of the day you have to trust your gut.

I used the term, "sizing up" to illustrate the idea that you are not merely asking questions to determine scummicity, but rather character analysis. You seemed to want to know who I am, as opposed to where I am standing. This struck me as a bit odd, and still does strike me as odd.

Also, as I stated earlier, questions are good. Dig deep into me if you need to. Just remember that you reveal pieces of yourself along the way. The questions asked can be just as telling as the answers given. Quite simply, I don't trust your line of questioning, so I felt the need to address it strongly.

As you stated, questions are very, very important, and you were right in asking them. In fact, the only reason I brought you up at all in my answers is because you asked me to. You wanted to know who I suspected was scum, and I gave you a straight answer. I don't trust you. At all.

Now... If you think I am trying to get away from you, that's a bit laughable. I am not going anywhere. Ask anything of me, and I will not tell an outright lie.

I have no reason to. I deny the first accusal.

As to the second accusual, I render a deny once more.

Do you really think that I am attacking on grounds of perceived pressure? Come on now, you can do better than that. The questions you asked were light at best, but I thought there is something deeper and continue to think so, especially since your strategy of defense seems to be changing rapidly. At first you ignored me, and asked for public approval. Vector chided you on this, so you took her advice and demanded rejustification instead.  You turning around and voting for me now only reaffirms my distrust.

Ranger... You need to produce something a bit more solid if you want to shake me... I am going to ask you to prove why my denies are false, and why you thought I am attempting to deceive you. Take all the time you need, since it is the weekend. Talk to others, ask for advice if you need to, or generally post on things that aren't related to this question if you need time to think about it. I am a very patient man.

Give me a solid reason why I should trust you.

Ranger's Response:

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

My last post regarding the conflict:

Birdy: Getting to know your character as well can help both sides equally. Scum may find a way to play your emotions where as town may understand how you look at things. As an example, Shinigami likes things orderly and calculated, but can appreciate a huge gambit under the right circumstances. You seem to like being sure of what your doing. It looks like you plan your questions and answers, while keeping a decently open mind about the opposing side. Character and Standing should go hand in hand in this game when determining reads.

Dem being my target was more just to try and get him back and talking instead of disappearing again. (Also, sorry about that Dem. I looked over your big post and you did answer everything. Just a bit harder to tell from your formatting.)

I still believe you tried to turn my attention away but it may not have been intentional. You haven't shown anymore signs that you may be trying too so unless your scum getting the IC to proofread your posts, your not overly guilty of this.

As for the my questions/attack, yes they were light. It was meant only to catch-up on RVS questions i would have asked you had you not been a replacement. Your feeling of a deeper meaning behind them seems like paranoia to me. A normal townie wouldn't need to be paranoid because they know they are expendable. Defending themselves is one thing, but a townie whos being paranoid isn't a good townie. Power roles can be a bit paranoid as if they die the town takes a huge blow. So unless you have a power role, your coming off as a paranoid scum to me. (Note that this is different from a panicking Townie)

My method of defence changes as everyone hits me with varying degrees of pressure. I try to be adaptive to whos attacking and how so that i don't get over wellmed.

I am afraid you've left a very minimal impression on me with this argument. While you answered my questions, you did so softly. You call me paranoid. I call you afraid of stepping up to the plate. Your answers to my questions are evasive and vague, with minor contraditions. For instance, you say I have an open, but paranoid mind on the same. Those are two adjectives that do not lend themselves to one another. You're struggling to find a way to defend yourself and "adapt" as you call it, which I take as a negative sign.

You also say combine "questions" with the word "attack". A question is only an attack when it forces the one answering into an uncomfortable place. You held me at cookie-point, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. The only reason I became suspicious at all was due to the nature of the questions, as opposed to the questions asked. Your questions were soft enough to the point where they raised suspicions on the account that I felt they were too weak to have been asked by a townie.


I'm going to try to take some time and start the preparations a final arguement. Expect it before the fall of Night.

Ultimately, I was right in thinking that something was there, so I don't entirely regret my tunneling spree. RangerCado did have something to hide. I just made the mistake of tunneling a character who's identity needed to stay hidden.

[Vector]

Now personally, I'm against forcing two of our power roles into the open for town to pick off.

Oh my.

[Shinigami_King]

Ranger. You are a fool. You realize with a tiny bit of effort you probably would have been fine right? All you needed to do was work for your freedom (I know, it is a crazy idea) but instead you tried taking the easy way out. I'm keeping my vote on you because you look scummy.

Everyone, as said before, if we try to strategize and use the jailer the scum could just no-kill or the jailer would have to reveal them self. (That or some other dumb thing.) Why waste the jailers time protecting someone already deamed as scummy when they can protect someone who is universally declared not scum. I think everyone is scummy but Pup and Vector are both good candidates. All of you people seem to like them.

I am already known for a kind of Lynch all idiots mentality or from my earlier case Lynch all people I don't like. Still, I'll leave the rest to you because my thinking is pretty straight forward here.

[Griffionday]

*Facepalm* Stupid typo; I really should stop rushing off posts before I need to be elsewhere doing other things.

Obviously I meant "...out in the scum to pick off".  Although I'd be against forcing our power roles out into public eye if it caused bandwagons; considering the caution of some of the others, this is probably not a scenario we need to be concerned about.

Anyway, back to rushing off to elsewhere.  I should be back in less than an hour though.

[Vector]

*Facepalm* Stupid typo; I really should stop rushing off posts before I need to be elsewhere doing other things.

Uh-huh.  Nice slip, scumbucket.  I'll be watching you very closely.

I'm keeping my vote on you because you look scummy.

Your business is to find people who are scummy, not folks who look scummy, Shinigami_King.  Keep on working at it.