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[Demdemeh]

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here.

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

I have not been satisfied with his answers to my reasons to this point, no. A brief "I'm not looking for advice, but will write it down for later" is too vague to allay my suspicions; he could be referring to another game, or to a later post in this one. He also only responded to one point in my later post to him, asking for clarification and ignoring the rest. So, Shinigami, if you could answer the rest of

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lenglon could verry well be one of the scum but wouldn't that be convenient for you?

So, with that observation in play, can you, Shinigami_King, let us know why you choose to play a game which has the potential to disrupt your thinking so strongly? Or is it simply the "Bible of Scumhunting" style of play that Vector is using which upsets you? "If you're suspicious, push... if they move, push harder," right?

So what do you feel is the best strategy for scumhunting?

for me, please? I've taken the liberty of removing the parts I feel you HAVE adequately answered, but the rest remains intact. In addition, griffinpup, I find it quite odd that you would fly your own flag of suspicion and pressure on the SS Shinigami_King, but at the same time attack me for the same. I can understand wanting my reasons, but your own questions and statements indicate that you're on the verge of voting for him (if you decide that I am cleaner), as well. Well, there are my reasons, and, as I stated earlier in this post, I also agree with yours.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

I have admitted to my mistakes, and give what explanations I have. As far as putting pressure on people, I'm starting to pick up steam, now. I'm trying to learn the kinds of questions to ask from others, and to figure out exactly what makes me feel suspicious about someone. So far, I've been doing a poor job, which I have also admitted before now. Part of my reticence has also been an attempt to see responses to people who are more experienced than I am. I have been trying to assemble my own cases from this information rather than distract from the pressure with a more-than-likely inferior question which might allow an easy out and an excuse for evasion.

Dem:

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

I didn't push at the time because I was kind of embarassed at having made the mistake of mislabeling it to begin with. I felt that that error undermined my credibility with the issue, and was so frustrated that I had overlooked such a basic thing that I dropped it in favor of being self-centered.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

Preferably hard evidence, and for that, there's nothing like a roleflip. A particularly strong or persuasive post can change my mind too. Borno did an excellent job at the end of the last BM presenting his case, although at that point I was still undecided.

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Having trouble forming an opinion on your own, Demdemeh?

This is a pretty slanted question, designed to cast suspicion onto either Vector or Lenglon. It's even scummier when used on one's self, but in this case it looks like you're just trying to play the situation up.

I have my own opinions. I just want to know what other people think. As far as the slant goes, I think that's entirely in your own head. What language did I use, exactly, to assign value to either side? Wanting to know where you stand doesn't make it slanted, and from what I'm reading in the part you even quoted, what I wrote was a pure opinion question.

[Shinigami_King]

Okay Pup, I think you are referring to the way I voted Lenlong differently compared to everyone else. I think the purpose was more to defend my reasoning of having her as the lowest on my scum list. I wanted to defend my reasoning. Everyone has stated why she is likely scum so I was stating what I thought wasn't scummy of her and how she is beneficial to the team. (That is the difference between her and Vector. Lenglon's scumhunting methods feel more conductive in a team environment.) Lenglon has reacted to pressure in the same way I would whether I were scum or town. I have also already said that everyone here acts scummy so I just am putting lenglon lower on my priority list. If Lenglon is scum then she will likely be voted out, if she is town, her strong scumhunting methods will help us. The one thing is, you have been moseying around in the background Lenglon. I know you gave us an excuse but I think it's time you come back and give us an example of how strong you are in scum hunting.
I think that answers your questions as well Demdem but just in case.
It's not so much my playstyle that get's disrupted, it is simply the fact that I don't fair well with pressure no matter where it comes from. I have addressed this already. I already explained why I don't like Vector's playstyle, it is too attack based and it feels in no way helpful in a group environment. I like scumhunting when it is very analytical. Something that looks at what has happened, puts them in a row and everyone can see for themselves how true it is. You can put pressure over someone this way but it seems much more structured. It's like comparing an argument to an organized debate.
I hope that clears some things up.

[Dariush]

Come on guys, lynch someone already. It's so boring in deadchat.

[Demdemeh]

Where do you get the facts from if you're not pushing people, Shinigami? While I won't argue that Vector's attack was very aggressive, it served to engage Lenglon in conversation and provide a large number of responses to analyze. It seems like your method would have us largely sitting around, drinking tea, and making polite conversation about the weather, with the occasional comparison of facts. Or is there a way to ask pointed questions that doesn't simultaneously apply too much pressure for your liking? It seems to me that only someone who knows who is scum would have the facts necessary to build a case without investigative questioning.

[Shinigami_King]

It's like walking on a tight rope. There is a safe place but only just slightly. And no one is going to have everything going perfectly for them. This would be my perfect scumhunt. It's not going to happen though so I would like to see how close to this style I can get. I also said that pressure is fine because it is necessary, I just don't like pure solid aggression. Also, occasionally comparing facts and opinions? No. No no no no. Having a continuous comparison and continuously getting reads from others. If people are continuously giving blatant facts paired with their opinions you would quickly be able to see if they are biased or not and you can see if their points stand. This is similar to hat we do already but in a much more formal manner I suppose. Also yes, tea is quite nice.

[RangerCado]

Shinigami: Dem has a point. You've defended the 2 players under the most pressure from others, then say you don't like pressure that isn't analyitical. Okay, then what do you call what you've been doing to me? And may be misinterpritating this but you seem to be doing what you accused me of earlier right now.

-snip-
-Ranger, defensive=scum. See Lenglon's post.
-Ranger, You are behaving in a "Wait for others to do something" manner. See Lenglon's post again.
-snip-

You accused me of not making my own opinion but just copying others. I understand you didn't have much time then so could you please explain to me (in your own words) your side of Lenglon's points as well? I've also started to (however slowly) not wait around for others anymore.

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

Demdemeh: You still have some unanswered questions from players. I'd quote them for you but i'm pressed for time. Please answer them for us.

[Demdemeh]

As far as I can see, and I've searched back through the entire thread, I can't find a question I haven't recently answered (and even quoted) in my last couple of posts. If I'm incorrect, could someone please remind me of what I've missed?

[Vector]

It's like comparing an argument to an organized debate.

Any and all established structure can and will be exploited by the scumteam.

Come on guys, lynch someone already. It's so boring in deadchat.

Wanna swap in?

[Shinigami_King]

Short post.
Vector, structure is difficult to take advantage of because it is quite easy to notice inconsistencies. If someone tries to mess with the facts or is very one sided it is an immediate dead give away. Obviously people are smarty that to just do some huge thing to stand out like that but the inconsistencies would keep adding up.

[Vector]

Yeah, see, you keep on assuming that the scum is going to play nice or be obvious.  Why didn't you win last game?  Just couldn't pick up on the obvious signs?

You're assuming that if you devise a perfect enough machine then you'll be able to weed out all scum and keep all townies without any real work.  You'll lynch off everyone that mixes things up for being "against the group."  But I'm going to tell you one more time: You don't get an ideal group of players.  You get what you get.  You have to learn to work with what you have, rather than wasting lynches on "oooh, I don't like him" or "aaah, I don't like her playstyle."  You can't afford to buddy up to Lenglon because she's "a better scumhunter."

Just look at the numbers.  Town has three lynches before they lose.  What will you do in a game with four scumhunters you don't like?  I promise you that the more vocal you are about it, the longer the scum will try to keep them alive.  Or, what will you do in a game where the person you like just happens to be scum, and you spend the better half of your time trying to defend them from townies you dislike?  Do you legitimately think that you're not going to get lynched?

Look, I'm not asking you to be nice.  I'm just asking you to be somewhat less stupid.

[Griffionday]

Demdemeh:

First off, I appreciate your defending me, Shinigami, but saying yourself that you think I'm slightly scummy and then later telling people they shouldn't vote for me seems a bit too "reverse psychology". Especially considering your earlier defense of Lenglon, who you also outright stated is "scummy". I'd also like to know your responses to griffinpup's inquiries, which have been conveniently requoted here.

How is being defended useful to town and why are you grateful for it? It seems like you're just glad the pressure against you is in part being deflected by Shinigami.

In addition, griffinpup, I find it quite odd that you would fly your own flag of suspicion and pressure on the SS Shinigami_King, but at the same time attack me for the same. I can understand wanting my reasons, but your own questions and statements indicate that you're on the verge of voting for him (if you decide that I am cleaner), as well. Well, there are my reasons, and, as I stated earlier in this post, I also agree with yours.

You fail to mention WHY you find griffinpup's multiple attacks are odd.  Are you calling him out on a hypocrite or are you (as your second sentence indicates) just wishing he'd leave you alone and move on?

I didn't push at the time because I was kind of embarassed at having made the mistake of mislabeling it to begin with. I felt that that error undermined my credibility with the issue, and was so frustrated that I had overlooked such a basic thing that I dropped it in favor of being self-centered.

So you folded under pressure and started playing defensively?  I don't know how assertive you are, but typically a "oops, my bad Shinigami.  Hey Lenglon, why are you hiding?" would be more productive than turtleing.

I have my own opinions. I just want to know what other people think. As far as the slant goes, I think that's entirely in your own head. What language did I use, exactly, to assign value to either side? Wanting to know where you stand doesn't make it slanted, and from what I'm reading in the part you even quoted, what I wrote was a pure opinion question.

The problem isn't that you're taking a side in the debate: it's that you're forcing someone else to do so.  By doing that you remove some of the flexibility he has as an observer to analyze the debate and see all possible implications of it; but more damagingly it also allows the parties in the debate a chance to adjust to how the town is perceiving them. 

Truthfully this is part of the reason I don't like posting reads unless explicitly requested and for a good reason.  I feel it allows scum to go "Oh, okay I'm in the clear for now" or worse "Oh, so I'm drawing heat, better prepare a defense for the attacks that are going to come."  It's preventing this that makes reads take so much work to make, as you have to launch your attack right then to keep the element of surprise.

[griffinpup]

Okay Pup, I think you are referring to the way I voted Lenlong differently compared to everyone else.

... Not really...  I would prefer if you answered the questions that I asked you in the actual post.  I'll rewrite the most important ones here to make sure you get them.
What about Lenglon makes him scummy? 
What response do you have to the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, you have NEVER pressured him yet make excuses to not do so again? 
Why aren't you concerned with Lenglon if your read is scummy?
Why was his pathetic excuse at pressuring you so soft-balled?
There's more questions in my first post, but these I consider the most important.  Make sure you answer at least these.  Remember, I want YOUR answers, not someone else's.  And Lenglon, these questions aren't for you.  You may post a reply, but I'd prefer to hear from Shinigami first, so I get an uncontaminated answer.

Also, why didn't you answer any of my questions the first time?

[birdy51]

Birdy: I've realized something here. You said in my place you would have stayed your voting hand on Dem? Okay, but in my place i'm being accused over and over about not attacking people. This seemed a good place too come back to now that Dem has returned. And i'll also address the "sizing up" thing. Is this really a scummy thing to do? As well as digging deeper? This makes you uncomfortable which means you feel pressured by me. How is that scummy? Of course sizing you up and possibly digging deeper is going to be what i'm thinking about, how else am i going to get a read on you? This actually took me a bit of time to see (i also stopped looking at it last night after thinking Ford hadn't voted Dem yet) but the way you worded it seemed to very subtlely be trying to get me away from you. Unvote,  Vote Birdy. Do you deny what i've accused you of?
(Quick reference: trying to turn my attention away from you.)
(And thinking me pressuring you was scummy.)

I'll address this first.

I simply don't feel that Dem is a truly valid target. Him not being around has been an issue, but that doesn't automatically mean he's scumtell. With all the pressure on him already, I would have let others keep on him and focus on other matters. This is my own reasoning on the subject.

To the second point, people have blamed you about not being aggressive enough. This is a relative opinion however. I personally haven't been bothered in the slightest on whether you are aggressive enough or not. Defensive... Aggressive... Both are adjectives that are a bit unreliable. You can have a Defensive Cop attempting to avoid being knocked out of the game early, and you can have an Aggressive scum trying to fit in with the town. At the end of the day you have to trust your gut.

I used the term, "sizing up" to illustrate the idea that you are not merely asking questions to determine scummicity, but rather character analysis. You seemed to want to know who I am, as opposed to where I am standing. This struck me as a bit odd, and still does strike me as odd.

Also, as I stated earlier, questions are good. Dig deep into me if you need to. Just remember that you reveal pieces of yourself along the way. The questions asked can be just as telling as the answers given. Quite simply, I don't trust your line of questioning, so I felt the need to address it strongly.

As you stated, questions are very, very important, and you were right in asking them. In fact, the only reason I brought you up at all in my answers is because you asked me to. You wanted to know who I suspected was scum, and I gave you a straight answer. I don't trust you. At all.

Now... If you think I am trying to get away from you, that's a bit laughable. I am not going anywhere. Ask anything of me, and I will not tell an outright lie.

I have no reason to. I deny the first accusal.

As to the second accusual, I render a deny once more.

Do you really think that I am attacking on grounds of perceived pressure? Come on now, you can do better than that. The questions you asked were light at best, but I thought there is something deeper and continue to think so, especially since your strategy of defense seems to be changing rapidly. At first you ignored me, and asked for public approval. Vector chided you on this, so you took her advice and demanded rejustification instead.  You turning around and voting for me now only reaffirms my distrust.

Ranger... You need to produce something a bit more solid if you want to shake me... I am going to ask you to prove why my denies are false, and why you thought I am attempting to deceive you. Take all the time you need, since it is the weekend. Talk to others, ask for advice if you need to, or generally post on things that aren't related to this question if you need time to think about it. I am a very patient man.

Give me a solid reason why I should trust you.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

I was honestly a bit suprised that he said there wasn't anything to be taken from my introduction. His tone seemed to be a bit dismissive, which bothered me. However... He's ultimately right. Being new to this forum, I am a wild card. One post isn't really enough to build a solid opinion on me unless I say something absolutely fantastic that warrants further scrutiny.

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

That... and questions like these can be used to either look for a slip-up or a sign to confirm your opinion on who is who. Or... change opinions.

Noncommital and vague; you could say any question serves that purpose.  What, specifically, were you going to do with any information you got from the range of expected answers?

For instance, I am now going to go out on a limb and say that Lenglon is a townie. He answered the question much too frankly to be a piece of scum. But time will tell if this opinion will change.

Buddying, softballing, and... noncommital.  If you say someone is a townie, then you should mean it.  It's fine to say "I think she's a townie, because X Y and Z," but "She is town.  I may change my opinion later" is just absurd.

Seriously?  "This is what I think of birdy from his single post" is enough to make you think that she's town?  What would it take to make you think that someone is scum?


Also... didn't you play in Not-So-Beginner's Mafia 3 a few years back?  I think I replaced in for you.  You were playing scum.

It is one of my many talents, thank you!

If someone is going to offer an opinion on me, I would prefer it be a strong one. Perhaps its a sense of parnoia, but I like seeing where people stand. It gives me a chance to mount a proper fight. However, the fight never came with Lenglon. She quite clearly did not have an opinion of me. Now, I would suspect that a member of team scum would have offered something one way or another in an attempt to either assuage my curiousity or assault me for it.

Lenglon suprised me by offering a third answer that I wasn't quite expecting. That was sticking to her guns on the idea that she really didn't have any opinion, and that my post was mostly flavorless. Her answer struck me as an honest one, and I have already stated that I appreciate covering these kinds of matters in the light of day. Therefore, I'm just not getting scum vibes from Lenglon. Her uncertainty shows in her post, and that's not something you fake. Scum would have no reason to be uncertain, as they already know who I am.

If you wish to me to elaborate more on this, just ask, but I need to continue on.

Let me first say that you are right. If I am going to say something, I may as well make it on a strong foot. I didn't supply enough reasoning for my opinion of Lenglon.

However, I obviously do have an opinion on who is scum. My scum evaluations lie on the idea whether a character is acting suspiciously or abnormally. RangerCado is on the receiving end of that. You are the receiving end of another such evaluation. For instance, you do not threaten me. You've stated several times that you wanted others to take initiative in the scum hunt due to being an IC. However, no one was attacking me as of yet... Just vague opinions.

Believe it or not, I appreciate the gesture of your questioning, as I feel your digging is also a way to discover my weaknesses, so I can build upon them and learn to guard against them. For instance, you've caught onto my tendancy to use a passive voice. I'm not always good at using a solid voice; one that speaks with authority. In fact, I've had to adopt one to make myself seem a bit stronger than I really am. I knew this going in, but the focus of my arguement was on RangerCado, the one place where I absolutely cannot show weakness. This caused me not be as strong when justifying my claim on Lenglon. It was very, very wishy-washy to say the least.

So, probe further. I want to know where I am weak.

As to your last question Vector, I am afraid you have the wrong person. I only joined this forum about a less than a year ago! However, I must ask... Is the fact that I remind of you of him a good thing or a bad thing?

[Vector]

You already sound much better.  Good.  However, I'll add that your use of ellipses makes you sound like you're sort of trailing off most of the time, which "sounds" a bit wishy-washy.  Keep on thinking about how you express yourself, and I'm sure you'll do a good job here.

I'll ask you more questions in a bit; I'm just taking a bit of time off from cleaning my room.  As far as that other question... haha.  The person I thought was you left in a hurry and was on the verge of being lynched, so I spent a very busy 24 hours trying and failing to save the last member of the scumteam (me).  I was sort of hoping that she'd be back.  You have a sort of similar voice.

[Lenglon]

just popping in to let you know that today i've been unusually busy, and still will be for several more hours. sorry about the delay.