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[Tiruin]

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(3) - Shinigami_King, Lenglon, birdy51
• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• birdy51(1) - Vector
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(3) - griffinpup, Captain Ford, RangerCado
• Shinigami_King(2) - Demdemeh, Griffionday
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(0) -

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 27, 2013. [Monday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!



It is now noonday. For those who chance a glance at the windows--and thus, the lands outside--see a spectacular combination of light and scenery; the light blending in with trees, mountains and oceanic landmasses as well as their shadows in making a wonderful scene.

"Don't think about that too much. You may probably get to see it first-hand."

You notice that there is no railing or glass protecting that part of the hall from the outside...it's quite a nice view from near the top of the Aerie, really.



Note ahead everyone, I'll be absent on May 25 [Saturday] because of family vacation ^^

Not that it matters much--you're all in until Monday!

[Captain Ford]

Demdemeh: Please respond to these outstanding questions:

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

Preferably hard evidence, and for that, there's nothing like a roleflip. A particularly strong or persuasive post can change my mind too. Borno did an excellent job at the end of the last BM presenting his case, although at that point I was still undecided.

Shinigami_King: How do you feel about Vector's concentrated drive against Lenglon?

Having trouble forming an opinion on your own, Demdemeh?

This is a pretty slanted question, designed to cast suspicion onto either Vector or Lenglon. It's even scummier when used on one's self, but in this case it looks like you're just trying to play the situation up.

And also this post from Giffinpup:

Spoiler: It's a big post (click to show/hide)

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

Dem:

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

Ranger:

Lenglon: I've played reactively as it suits my mindset. I'm not a very assertive person so i rarely take the initaitive. I tried to pressure Dem but he disappeared and i've been busy most of today. Explain how i've been hiding my thought processes please.

How about that gambit you performed in Magic Mafia? That took initiative and some cajones to attempt.

[Lenglon]

It wouldn't neccisarily be defensive play.

I don't see why a townie couldn't play sporadically, confusing all players to a point where its hard to justify lynching them, or NKing them as they don't seem to be doing anything yet their points are valid.

the underline is mine and relevant.
so it supposedly wouldn't be playing defensive, but it would be playing specifically to try to live longer? if that isn't playing defensive, what is?

people will start to think your being unhelpful

they'll also generally tell you when you go too far. case in point, the way vector told me to back off when I was attacking Day. or the way shinigami told vector to back off when she was attacking me.

scum might just kill you to create massive WIFOM.

Scum are going to kill someone anyway, and there are good reasons use of WIFOM is frowned upon.
A pattern is not needed to be aggresive, but a lack of consistency is a form of scumtell. since scum dont actually have to hunt, they just need to justify their actions and try to survive each day. scum will often say one thing and do another, or change their mind without rhyme or reason. the most common examples of this is the unexplained or minimally explained bandwagon vote, or a last-second bus on a doomed scumbuddy, and so on. however this logic can extend out to include having a lack of consistency in their scumhunting as a whole. I dont consider it anywhere near as strong a scumtell when extended like this, but I do find your attempt to justify defensive gameplay as a whole quite scummy.
PPE:

Lenglon:

such gameplay is defensive, and scummy for the same reason all other forms of defensive gameplay is scummy.

Why is playing defensively scummy? 

I know Vector already covered this, but I want to know what you took away from that conversation.

defensive gameplay is scummy because scum's primary goal is survival. townie's have to hunt down and lynch the scum, which is an aggressive action, and aided by aggressive gameplay. if everyone has perfect defenses and so lynches are either totally random or don't happen at all, scum win, pretty much every time. we HAVE to act aggressively or the scum win by default, hiding and bunkering ourselves up is going to do nothing for us.
SO MANY PPES! luckily none include questions to me in them so i'll just post this now, and hopefully not find a reason to double-post after some further review.

[birdy51]

Eh another post from me, but I forgot the adress this in my first message to Lenglon. Luckily, this is a bit on the lighter side...

Werewolf seems to be the popular popular game to learn Mafia from! I actually learned how to play it in my German Class... Roles were assigned by passing them out from a deck of cards. I don't remember much of the games, but I distinctly remember the Lovers somehow winning the game one round. Twas quite fun!

If only for our mutual bond in how we first experienced this game... I accept your cookie. But I shall not eat it. Not yet...

[RangerCado]

Quick post to address Fords question: That was something i didn't think would work and was going to stop it earlier if it hadn't seem to be actually working in Towns favor (I was right too that NQT was Town even if i started to doubt it at the end, I just didn't expect Vector to be able to grab a scum buddy from the masses)

I'll answer your concerns in a bit Birdy, i'm just a bit hungry right now. I should be fine as i was preparing myself for the last three or four days. Just kind of a shock as we all thought she was going to recover. (freaking cancer ruins everything)

[Captain Ford]

Lenglon:

SO MANY PPES! luckily none include questions to me in them so i'll just post this now, and hopefully not find a reason to double-post after some further review.

Don't worry too much about double posting. Since you can't edit, it's kind of expected.

I honestly don't know why double-posting is so looked-down-upon. But then there are times where I will post five or six times in a row (usually only when I'm very confused. I find it helpful to post one line of thinking before moving on to another).

Generally speaking, players find big walls of text more disorienting than multiple posts. Especially when you're following links from quotes and then trying to find the reference in a ginormous post.

That's just my opinion of course, and YMMV.


Ranger:

Quick post to address Fords question: That was something i didn't think would work and was going to stop it earlier if it hadn't seem to be actually working in Towns favor (I was right too that NQT was Town even if i started to doubt it at the end, I just didn't expect Vector to be able to grab a scum buddy from the masses)

I don't think that quite addresses my question. You said you don't take the initiative and I provided a counter-example of you taking the initiative and asked you to explain the discrepancy.

[Shinigami_King]

I'm sorry but I'm taking today off to relax. Good thing too because I notice that everything that I was planning on addressing has been covered already. I'm sure everyone is interested anyway to see where my head is at so here are the things I was going to speak of.
-Ranger, defensive=scum. See Lenglon's post.
-Ranger, You are behaving in a "Wait for others to do something" manner. See Lenglon's post again.
-Pup, Who we choose to attack is up to us. I have come to believe that we may think similarly seeing as we attack the same targets. I don't really know though to be honest here.
-Ranger, Why are you putting you're vote on Demdem who seems to have enough pressure? Why not, I don't know, attacking someone?
Griffy- Addressing your question. I realize what you are saying but when I excused myself I also promised to post at a time and I kept that promise. If I posted something with no weight or said "Oop's I forgot." I would be in a different position here. Also I softballed you by accident. In fact I have a bad habit of doing that (I play softball as a hobby). I was tired during the post so I wasn't thinking to hard about pressuring. Like I said, I'm not good with pressure, whether it's around me or coming from me.
I think that's it? I don't know If I missed something that you think I should cover just point it out please.
PPE
I disagree Ranger. Walls of text are disorienting but it at least shows that they put their thoughts in a row. If it's well put togeather you see a strong case or defense. It also presents a chance for scum to trip up and make a mistake because they get "very confused". So, would you mind explaining why you do so many double posts. (All with little content)

[Captain Ford]

I disagree Ranger. Walls of text are disorienting but it at least shows that they put their thoughts in a row. If it's well put togeather you see a strong case or defense. It also presents a chance for scum to trip up and make a mistake because they get "very confused". So, would you mind explaining why you do so many double posts. (All with little content)

That's not my name but it's half-addressed to me, so I'll answer it.

Personally, I tend to post like that when I'm at work, where I get interrupted frequently, disrupting my thoughts and making it hard to string together long posts. In the past, I know Ranger often posted from this DSi, which I imagine has a very small screen and made it difficult for him to work on large posts.

[Griffionday]

Shinigami:

I'm sorry but I'm taking today off to relax.

-snip-

Griffy- Addressing your question. I realize what you are saying but when I excused myself I also promised to post at a time and I kept that promise. If I posted something with no weight or said "Oop's I forgot." I would be in a different position here. Also I softballed you by accident. In fact I have a bad habit of doing that (I play softball as a hobby). I was tired during the post so I wasn't thinking to hard about pressuring. Like I said, I'm not good with pressure, whether it's around me or coming from me.

Hmm... I'm still not sure what post you were referring to when you said  I'd "accused you of not scumhunting."  When you get a chance could you quote the one you were thinking of?  I understand this may wait until you get back.

[Lenglon]

Ford: You missed a question from me.

Ford: what do you think of Day?

[griffinpup]

Um... I think you missed this one Shinigami.

I do have an opinion on who is scum, however. 

Shinigami-  I choose Shinigami because he isn't blatantly bad, like Cheesecake or Demdemeh (No offence), but has been giving off scum tells. He came into the game buddying pretty hard to Lenglon in the beginning, though they did both give explanations for that after being prompted.  That's not where it stopped, though.

Spoiler: Shini's Post (click to show/hide)

Everyone looks pretty scummy.
Vector- you may just be covering your footsteps. Your original onslaught died out and now you are just playing. It may be because you wanted to look like you were a strong towny right off the bat. Your response?
Ranger- Well, just look. I've set out a case above so just help yourself if you are interested.
Lenglon- Scummy but probably suspected less than everyone else (except ford, he is special. See below.) I was thinking of attacking you just to see if you would slip up and look any scummier but you seem less of a concern. Besides, you are good at scumhunting so you can stir up the "civilians". Man, I like using that word in mafia don't I?
Captain Ford- Null. That's about it.... Moving on~
Cheesecake/replacement- scum? That slip up was stupid. It could be a sign of really bad scum or scum trying to create wifom. I'm going to wait patiently for their replacement.
Demdem- Slight scum. Where did you do? I don't remember much about your play seeing as you have been MIA, but I don't remember your case being strong at all.
"Griffy"- People other than me, seem to be taking notice of your slightly scummy actions though you don't seem prone to slip up. (I like that new title by the way. Just roles off the tongue.
Pup- Scumier than Griffy and less so than Ranger. I still say you are scummy simply because I find the habits in your play style odd. But this goes back to the town etiquette that griffy mentioned so I am just going to stand back and watch you. Don't know what to properly make of you.
In short. Everyone is scummy except Ford who is null. I would say scum ranks are in this order.
Ranger
Pup (position interchangeable with griffy)
Griffy (position interchangeable with pup)
Demdem
Vector
Cheesecake
Lenglon

In this fairly recent post, he outlined his reads from all the characters.  If you'll notice, he gives an explanation for every one of his reads of us in his short description. Except, of course, Lenglon.  He called him scummy, but then ranks him the second lowest out of everyone?  Especially when he ranks people he read as "slight scum" as more suspicious then decidedly "scummy".  Shinigami actually gave an excuse not to pressure him!  Shinigami, why do you thing Lenglon is scummy but less scummy then, say, everyone else?  Since you never addressed why you thought he was scummy, what about his play makes him scummy?  What response do you have to the fact that, if I'm not mistaken, you have NEVER pressured him? Yet you make excuses to not do so again?  You say that he is less of a concern.  You then rank him to be your lowest concern.  Why wouldn't you be concerned?  Perhaps even though he's scum, you feel safe because you are too.  A definite possibility at this point.  He only pressured you very briefly over an issue of semantics.  In fact he pushed so soft that it looked like someone pulling punches.  Why would he do this?
Next...

[/spoiler]
I would appreciate some clarification on these points.

[RangerCado]

Ford: It was something i had little faith in actually working. I don't do those sorts of things on a regular basis as i'm used to being talked over, or if i do take the initiative, almost completely ignored. The gambit in magic mafia was something i expected to fall apart quickly, or just be ignored. (The fact that i guessed so much of the information correctly was kind of ridiculous though. that was fun) Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Birdy: More questioning would come from an odd appearence in your reads was what i was referring too. Something out of place or misunderstood was what i was looking for. Seeing none of that, your reads seemed genuine. Okay, my vote maybe a little over doing it yes, but he said he was going to get more into the game, then vanished again! (6-8 hours now since his last post) Fords is incredibly over doing it though, 4 votes is ridiculous. I'm not going to remove my vote though because this will just give lenglon more ammunition, and i don't see anyone else i might use it on right now without being accused of OMGUS.

Shinigami: You know me so you should know by now that if i don't over do things, i under do them. And as Ford said, i do post from my DS alot which is why i almost never use quotes too. I got a Blackberry tablet which i am using the wrong charger for because i lost the correct one at my Dad's house so it doesn't often have a good charge and quoting still sucks with it. Its also intersting to note that you completely overlooked Ford giving him a fourth vote despite checking the newer posts. Why did you not also address him? As for attacking someone, i could attack you or Lenglon, but the other would just accuse me of OMGUSing as you two seem to be working together in some way shape or form. You two can deny this but it would fit with how you've been playing so far. (My DS also has a letter limit somewhere in the 2000s or 4000s. its sucks)

Jeez, 7 PPEs. Atleast only a couple were addressed to me.

[Captain Ford]

Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Are you joking? I've been voting him for quite a while now.

I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.

[RangerCado]

Also, as Birdy pointed out, i've kinda put more uneccisary pressure on Dem already, then you come in with a fourth vote? Now this is a band wagon vote.

Are you joking? I've been voting him for quite a while now.

I see your post, Longlen, I'll take a close look at Day and get back to you tomorrow. I'm falling asleep at my keyboard as it is.

...Thats it, i'm going to bed too. No way should i be messing that up.

[Vector]

I suppose I will ask a question in return... Lenglon, be a bit more detailed on what you think of me. Don't be shy about it.

Birdy, what information do you think you'll get out of this question?

I was honestly a bit suprised that he said there wasn't anything to be taken from my introduction. His tone seemed to be a bit dismissive, which bothered me. However... He's ultimately right. Being new to this forum, I am a wild card. One post isn't really enough to build a solid opinion on me unless I say something absolutely fantastic that warrants further scrutiny.

One post isn't enough to build an opinion, so you ask her about her opinion of you as an RVS question.  Now that's just talented.

That... and questions like these can be used to either look for a slip-up or a sign to confirm your opinion on who is who. Or... change opinions.

Noncommital and vague; you could say any question serves that purpose.  What, specifically, were you going to do with any information you got from the range of expected answers?

For instance, I am now going to go out on a limb and say that Lenglon is a townie. He answered the question much too frankly to be a piece of scum. But time will tell if this opinion will change.

Buddying, softballing, and... noncommital.  If you say someone is a townie, then you should mean it.  It's fine to say "I think she's a townie, because X Y and Z," but "She is town.  I may change my opinion later" is just absurd.

Seriously?  "This is what I think of birdy from his single post" is enough to make you think that she's town?  What would it take to make you think that someone is scum?


Also... didn't you play in Not-So-Beginner's Mafia 3 a few years back?  I think I replaced in for you.  You were playing scum.