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[griffinpup]

Sad Face.    I missed your question, Shinigami.  Let me answer that real quick.

Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.

Lenglon:  Leaning scummy.  He's (She's?  Oh well.  I'll say he this post.  If I'm wrong, correct me so I get it right forever more.) questioned me repeatedly about the role of jailkeeper, but his questions seem like they're trying to find information about mafia, not what he's actually talking about.  I do think that he also made a mistake over-generalizing a question meant to be specific, but it's hard to tell if this is newb or scum play.  Short of his interaction with Vector, and limited interaction with you, (all of which he DIDN"T initiate), he hasn't pressed anyone yet.  I haven't really pressed anyone yet either, so I can't condemn him for this, but I do think my posts have been more pressing then his.  (Apart from his with Vector, of course.)  His posts directed at Vector did seem, if not completely UMGUS, along those lines.  He over-reacted, plain and simple.  His tendency to not address accusations in statement form, instead of question form, also worries me.  Why wouldn't he want to clear up those accusations?

Vector:I've looked at some examples of Vector playing, and I agree with what someone said.  This is kind of her normal playstyle.  I disagree with you in the fact that it hasn't disrupted my play.  Tunneling is also an attribute of someone overeager, not necessarily a scumtell.  All in all, I'm leaning a bit town on her currently.  She doesn't seem to have over-reacted much this game at all, merely pouncing on a mistake made by Lenglon, and not letting up.

Shinigami_King:  You my dear fellow, are a prickly pear.  You come into the thread, screaming like a banshee, but after you calmed down you seem to have started playing acceptably.  You are still feeling around, and asking questions to everyone.  You come off as impatient to me though, as I said previously, it's only the first actual day.  You seem to have buddied pretty heavily with Lenglon, who only tried to separate from you after being prodded.  I agree that it's statistically unlikely that you and Lenglon are scum, but it's also as statistically likely as any other matchup.  It therefore, would be illogical to base our beliefs on these statistics.  Overall, you rate pretty much Null at the moment.  Your buddying with Lenglon was scummy, but the rest of your play really hasn't. 

Note. This is written before GriffionDay's post is  read.  I may change my opinion on you,
shinigami, depending on his points, and your responses.

[Captain Ford]

Bleh. I thought I was out of The Great Bastard when I signed up for this, so I am a little bit overwhelmed right now.

Still working my way through the thread, I'm at Reply #101 now. Once I get home this should get much faster.


Shinigami:

Both of you get the same question. In the last BM, Deathsword utilised his IC voice in order to change our perspective of who was scum in multiple places. Was he in the wrong or the right. How so? Vector, you answered before I could ask but Ford, how will you use your IC voice.

Counter-question: Did you learn something about deception from the way he manipulated you with his IC voice?

Simple Answer: I will use my IC voice to teach. That is what it's for, after all. Of course, only scum would have a need to manipulate you, so if I'm not scum, I won't have anything to gain by doing what he did.

I have been told to state "Why" and list my resoning even before being asked. This way people can see that I'm being blatant, blunt and I have nothing to hide.

Not bad advice, but by the same stroke, it can also give your target hints about how to defend themselves. There's another school of thought that says you ought to keep everything possible to yourself until asked for it.

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.


Griffionday:

ICs:
Can we get your definitions of WIFOM so we're all on the same page when discussing that term?

WIFOM = Wine In Front Of Me = Rampant Speculation

Speculative reasoning that has no value in scumhunting, primarily defined by its nature of being rapidly self-perpetuating as the theories are contradicted or built upon in rapid succession.

Although...actually, yeah, the definition from the OP is way better.


Griffinpup:

Captain Ford-  I'm running out of questions.  What questions do you prefer at this stage?  How reliable are the reads that you get from people at this point?

I can sometimes identify a townie or two by this point. Although as evidenced by past games, I have a tendency to defend scum, (almost 100%) which blinds me to their alignment later in the game. Ugh.

[Vector]

That's okay.  I'll just use you as a litmus test

[griffinpup]

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   

[RangerCado]

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   

... *points at the Mod*

[griffinpup]

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   

... *points at the Mod*

I was referring to the first part of his quote, about not having enough activity.  You do have a good point there though.

[Demdemeh]

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

[RangerCado]

...Dem, i think you meant that for Ford...

[Tiruin]

Vote standings:

• RangerCado(0) -
• Griffionday(1) - Shinigami_King
• Lenglon(1) - Vector
• Cheesecake(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• Demdemeh(0) - 
• Shinigami_King(3) - Demdemeh, Griffionday, Lenglon
• Vector(0) -
• Captain Ford(0) -
• Not Voting(4) - Cheesecake, Captain Ford, RangerCado, griffinpup

Day 1 has begun and will end at May 23, 2013 [Thursday]  9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!


"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

The downside of hoarding information is that if people don't post often, or there are timezone problems, it may mean you only get a few posts back and forth before the day ends.

I feel like we don't have that problem in this game.   

... *points at the Mod*

D:

;__; Meanies.

[griffinpup]

So, Demdemeh.  It seems to me like you aren't putting pressure on any one at  the moment.  In fact, you vote is still on Shinigami, and you still haven't explained why you have left it on him even though you have posted after him questioning you on that fact.  When you first placed your vote on him, you gave him a reason, but not much of one.  Did he ever answer that?  If so, why haven't you taken your vote off of him?  Do you have any more reason to think he's scum then that?  Perhaps you have insider knowledge on who's scum, and wanted to start off the game distancing  yourself from your scumbuddy? 

Lessons I have learned so far:

Be very careful to attribute posts appropriately.
Pay more attention to timing when accusing people of lurking.
Inactive weekends are the norm.

Ok. Doing good.

Now, to play some more.

Captain Ford: You say you accidentally defend scum in the early game, which blinds you later. What sort of thing does it take to make you question your current opinions.

RangerCado: As one of the most vocal accusers of lurking, I have to apologize. As you can see, I've learned better already. How was the graduation?

You have admitted to being new at this in many locations.  That, however is no reason to not give it your all.  Why aren't you even trying to put pressure on people?  In your last post you asked two questions.  One was an apology and a question about RL, not helping the town side at  all.  In fact, you even addressed it to the wrong person!  This was in no way, 'playing some more'.  Your second question resembles a post RVS, but just barely.  Also, the way I see it is that Captain Ford hasn't even Had time to respond to anything, much less make solid opinions.  Regardless, that question puts no pressure at all on Captain Ford.  If you despise lurking so much, why haven't you been putting any pressure on who you believed were guilty of it?  More specifically, why weren't you putting pressure on the people not posting over the weekend when you didn't think that was acceptable?  I realize that you have been corrected in the fact that there's no obligation to post over the weekend, but you didn't know that then.  But you still didn't go after them.  Almost like you wanted to appear helpful, while trying to be inconspicuous, definitely a scum tell.

Dem:

how on earth is over-answering a question evading it?

Giving too much information increases the static to noise ratio, and can be considered an attempt to confuse the reader into misinterpreting what you are trying to say; hiding in plain sight, as it were.

that wasn't shinigami who said that. that was me. dont do this again, ever. it's really scummy to lie in quotes. why did you feel the need to steal words from someone else to pressure shinigami? it's not like he wasn't under pressure already.

and if my answer to something confuses you, just ask me to clarify it.

Point taken. I apologize for the misattribution. It was not intentional, I assure you. Shinigami, please accept my apology for that.

Here, you make a solid and viable point.  You do happen to mislabel it however, but that is quickly resolved.  Notice how they didn't respond to your statement, only to your mislabeling of it.  You were right to apologize, but why didn't you push?  You made a solid point, and could of driven it home, putting pressure AND getting reads out  of  the people  involved.  Instead, you totally backed off, and avoided pressing the issue.  This is starting to become a disturbing pattern.  You keep on backtracking, apologizing, and altogether trying to look harmless.  You still don't push.  What are you trying to accomplish if not scumhunting?  Hiding?  That's clearly what it looks like! 

Your posts are disturbingly lacking in actual substance, but you seem to be trying to appear active.  You're actively lurking too, which is another scum tell.

[Vector]

Great post, griffinpup.


Fuck it.  Cheesecake, your reads, please.

[griffinpup]

"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

[/quote]
Wow... Your storytelling is really articulate.  I love it!!!

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   

[griffinpup]

"Piece Value Advantage (Black): Six Points."
"What's that supposed to mean?"
"You are losing by attrition."
"Probably. But...probably."

For those who choose to check on the game, see White losing by the lack of knights and Black ahead by a Rook and Pawn. The Chessboard is like a ruined city, wherein stone debris of destroyed constructs litter the area--just enough to show the brutality of war on a physical scale.

Somehow, you can sense that the soldiers are alive given by the apparent fear in the air. That, and the fact of a Pawn trying to destroy a Rook by swinging his spear at the flighty messenger.

"Why are our Rooks modeled like birds again? Shouldn't they be...towers? No wait, nevermind. I didn't forget the time they were made as Gamblers...I mean, throwing cards?"

[/quote]
Wow... Your storytelling is really articulate.  I love it!!!

P.S.  Just keep poking with your spear Shinigami, there's no way you're going to take down GriffionDay.   

[griffinpup]

Double post.  Sorry guys.   

[Shinigami_King]

Okay... I don't know where to start. I also only have 25 minutes so I wont be able to cover everything in this post sorry. I'll be back in about 2 hours then I will have about 40 minutes.
starting with these remarks.

I recently picked up a job in my mornings and then I have classes most of the day, I tend to be more active 6pm-1am PST; likewise I tend to be more active over the weekend as I have more free time.  Stop expecting people to follow your strict regiment of activity and calling them lurky when they've not been so.

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-
So you're accusing people of lurking that haven't posted in the last 12 hours?  This is my first post today, why haven't you been calling me a lurk?  Shinigami, people have lives, and you can't assume that none of the people 'lurking' don't have jobs or school from 9:00 to 5:00.  It's completely reasonable that they haven't been able to post yet, and they had no responsibility to post over the weekend.

I am only attacking those who posted over the weekend. It proved they were on the forum and because it was the weekend they had no obligation to post. To post a little bit is like someone saying "Hey, I'm here! I don't really care about what is going on but I will side with the leading team without adding anything. Welp, guess it's time to go now" That's why I have been calling out active lurking.

Shinigami-  I'm going to scumhunt, and if you don't like it, well too bad.  It might mess up your 'state of being' or whatever, but I, for one, don't care as long as I find scum.  That's what you should be doing too.  What it looks like you're doing right now is waiting  for people to ask you questions, so you can answer them and avoid scumhunting.  You gave your reason for going light on scumhunting before is because it was the weekend. Well...
Quote from: Shinigami_King on Today at 05:02:29 pm

It isn't the weekend anymore. You're argument is invalid -_-

Get to work.

The later post of mine was more of a joke directed at Ranger just so ya know. I am also fine with scum hunting, don't be confused, it is just Vector's methods that threw me off my game. When I first retaliated to Vector, Lenglon was appropriately distressed from the pressure and I, who wasn't even part of the thing, was thrown off. I kind of figured that a method that causes so much caos would not be appreciated by the rest of the group. Obviously I was wrong.

Long post because of ranting at Shinigami; I apologize to those who aren't him in advance

I actually do appreciate it by the way.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Re: BM XLI: Day 1, To Kill a Mockingbird
« Reply #158 on: Today at 12:25:06 am »
Quote
Shinigami:
Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:15:07 pm
To be frank, I have stated my reasons multiple time for being angry and I have stated why I am not scumhunting right now. I have been active. Just not in that department. In this period I think I would prefer to be asked something anyway like I said before. That will help people get to know me and the way I think. This will help me work with everyone as well.
So what have you been doing if not scum-hunting?  Because that pretty much leaves active lurking...  You jump in and accuse Vector of messing up your game by tunneling someone, and tell her to stop because it's affecting your zen.  You then do... pretty much nothing related to the game except offer weak RVS type questions.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
So, Vector is gone so I feel like I am not obligated to have a conversation about everything else that has happened so far.
Really now... Two things.  One: this is a forum game and not a chat game, just because she's gone doesn't mean shes not still very much a part of the game and you still need to address the points she's making.  Two: "everything else that has happened so far" is another way of saying "the entire game" We're still missing a couple people but it's highly unlikely that both of the scum have been absent: you can afford to look through their replies to find something to prod people about.

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
Grffin- You have been on today, what are your opinions of Vector, Lenglon and myself. I'm not asking for anything specific but you have the most info on us so yeah.
Griffion- Same goes to you I guess.
"You guess"?  Do you actually care about the question, or are you just trying to poll the aerie (see what I did there?) to make your reads look townish with no effort?

Since you asked though:
Vector: Leaning Town; she's been pressing her reads and trying to identify scum; she's tunneled a bit, but as she pointed out this is very early D1.
Lenglon: Leaning Scum; it's a pet theory of mine that if someone starts playing scummy and then shapes up quickly they are probably scum getting yelled at in the scumchat.  Obviously this only applies to noobs, but Lenglon fits this model to well for me to dismiss him as a likely scum.
You: Leaning Scum; with the previous read in mind your actions appear to be buddying Lenglon and providing a smokescreen for him by attacking his primary critic without reason, and then lobbing him a couple softball questions to help him get back on track.  Even if I make the assumption that Lenglon isn't scum; I still see your attack on Vector as suspicious because you actively disrupted someone's scum hunt while accusing them of disrupting yours.  You admit to this being your first time through RVS and feel justified in accusing somone else of playing this part of the game wrong...

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:46:39 pm
Anyone- If you have questions we still are on RVS seeing as the majority of players haven't put much out yet. I would like everyone to get to know my way of thinking so ask all you want.
*points to here* RVS is a person by person thing and is not actually required to play the game properly.

And new favorite post:
Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm
Ford ... has not drawn any attention to himself so far.
Ford hasn't posted yet, so of course he's not drawn attention to himself.

There ya go. First answer, week RVS questions are better than nothing. And by attacking Vector I was doing something that could help later in the game.
Second. I just finished having a nice long talk with her and we were both tired. The questions I then asked were in fact related, and were decent questions.
Third. Yes, I guess. I did care and still do. I add certain things like "Ciao" "eh" "ya" and "I guess" so that I appear human. There shouldn't be a problem with that.
Fourth. RVS is just something that I feel should be done. Random questions that might actually lead to something. I like the concept.
And that's all I'm going to address from that post. Moving on~

Shinigami: Okay, quick check shows that you don't get along with Vector's style of play. The only thing anger does is make you more suspicious. (Vector less so as she's always angry at someone) If you want to be able to deal with Vector with a clear head, find some common ground. Butting heads does nothing.

You know me IRL. I'm always upset and I never like people getting all high and mighty at me. To support that last point. Does anyone? Also, no I don't like Vector's style. A large reason I reacted the way I did other than the reasons I already mentioned is that I expected RVS to be a pretty calm section with a bunch of jokes. Not a punch to the gut in one post kind of thing.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yeah, the reason why I say "outdated" was because controlled anger used to be town's best weapon.  Being scum was not so much about being clever as having a heart of ice.  Well, also about being clever.  But your number one skill was learning to keep calm when you had five votes on you and everyone jumping down your throat trying to get you to act scared, because more often than not if you could do that, then they'd all go away and pester someone else.

And your number one skill as town was learning to bare your teeth and, point by point, dismantle an argument completely.

*shrug*


Hey Shinigami, sit tight.  This is going to be a long post but I ~promise~ that it will be worthwhile, teehee!  Besides, you wrote most of it <3

Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 11:37:05 pm
I don't know what you mean by favorite scumbudies. I'll go with the meaning I think. My favorite scumbudies would probably be ford of Lenglon. Ford seems to have a lot of history and has not drawn any attention to himself so far. People also seem to get along with him and charisma is a good weapon as scum. Lenglon simply because she is smart and I value that as a major strength. Meta game has also allowed me to know her better so I don't know. Some people I am afraid of being scum would be Ford once again and GriffionDay. He seems to be smart and doesn't give a scummy vibe. A null vibe really. And That is good, he isn't too chummy but keeps to solid reasoning.

Favorite scumbuddies means "who you'd most like to play scum with."  Thank you for the acceptable answer to my very boring question.  I hope we all learned something from this encounter.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
But you don't seem to thrilled being an IC seeing as you were hesitant to be one in the first place and you aren't even using your IC voice.

I have a 15-page paper on a 2500-page Chinese novel due on the 22nd.  When I signed up for this, I also had a 10-page math research paper due on that Friday.  I was worried that I wouldn't be able to get it done, so I was hesitant to sign up.

I'm not using my IC voice because I have no interest in fucking over you and everyone else.  Newbies seemed to come out better-trained before we had people pretending that they were making unbiased statements in-game.  I'd like to experiment along with the new setup to see if this will work better.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
What I'm trying to say is while you may be a strong player, it doesn't mean you are a strong IC and you can't just wave that title around. As far as the big headed thing goes, I personally am big headed. This however doesn't stop you from being big headed as well.

It's my job to tell you what to do, to the best of my knowledge.  It's your job to see if my advice is good and works for you.

You can say I'm a bad IC all you want, but unless you have some concrete complaints other than "Whaaaa, I don't like Vector, she's attacking my friend and she sucks!" or a specific replacement you want to call in, I suggest you sit down and shut up.


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
People think differently so I guess a good way to say things here is you disrupt my thinking because you are sending a bunch of aggressive posts in succession which just throws me off my game. It may be your play style and you seem to want to throw people off their game as it is your style of scum hunting. This is not beneficial to the group however so I dislike your play style.

If it catches scum, it's beneficial to the group.  It catches scum.  ==> It's beneficial to the group.  QED.

I keep on trying to find out what you want me to do differently, but all I'm hearing is that you don't like my play style, you don't like me, you wish I would post less, and you don't like that I'm asking people questions that have to do with things they've actually done in-game.

I see absolutely no reason to change any of these things.

Here is your first assignment in playing Mafia well, Shinigami_King!  If you can't convince the group of your point, then you might as well not have any information in the first place!  So here you go.  Convince a majority of players that I'm a terrible IC and ought to be replaced, or at the very least killed.  I'm obviously not going to change my position, so you have to talk everyone else into it.

Godspeed~


Quote from: Shinigami_King on May 19, 2013, 10:15:32 pm
I'll try to during the week but right now you seem very active and I have a problem with your style so I figure I might as well join in with this whole thing and see how much information we, myself and the group can get from who is active at this time.

If you're trying to get information, perhaps you should ask me why I'm behaving the way I am.  "What is the theory behind your method of scumhunting, O Great and Noble Vector?"

If you don't want to answer questions, then don't answer questions; just tell us you're taking the weekend off.  But none of this crap.

I still like this post even at the end of the day. Hm, good to know.
Well, that's my 25 minutes. I think I went far enough back in the thread to please some. Sorry I didn't instigate any scum hunting but I simply didn't have time. You know, with all of the everyone and their mother attacking me. I promise I will be back with some scum hunting in about 2 hours. Hope this clears some things up. (I just realized that I didn't address any of the comments on page 14. Oops. I'll do that next time as well.)