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[nightcrafter27]

These are the same questions, reposted because I had several spelling errors.

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here? Do you have a case on either Vector or me besides what Leafsnail has already stated? Do you think Leafsnail softballed you with his next question to you ("When will you have time?", IIRC)? I have posted my ideas on the reasons for Dem's behavior. Do you agree with them? If not, What parts don't seem accurate?

[Leafsnail]

I believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here and doesn't let up, even when he knows the day will end before Dem reads his post.

[etc]

What's that example got to do with anything?  Firstly it happens after the event I'm referring to, and secondly Dem probably never even saw it so there's no way it could influence his behaviour (and if he did see it he didn't post about it, so again it's irrelevant).

In any case, Ranger was in more danger of being lynched at the time of the events I was referring to - why should Dem have been panicking?  And further, I do not see why panicking would cause you to not vote a person you thought was the mafia rolecop or shorten the day at such a silly time.

Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.

If Dem wanted him lynched, he should have voted for him.  There is no meaning at all in pressure voting someone at deadline - you should always be lynch voting at deadline.  This applies double if someone is only leading by one vote - why not just make it clear Griffion was his secondary suspect while also locking in the lynch of someone he believed to be the strongest mafia role in the game?

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:

and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.

(again, my bolding)

I don't see his replacement as scum fleeing pressure.  I was referring to other players in general, who often basically hit a reset button in their heads when a player is replaced (which would be bad because we're running out of time and you are scum).  I feared the same could happen in this game.

Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?

Because I had two scumpicks, and there are two scum in this game.  It was also a weak gut feeling.

Unless it's clear that your top two suspects are not going to be lynched today, there's really not much point in pursuing a third (and in that case you're probably chasing a compromise lynch on someone you don't really think is scum but who you think is better than the alternative).

I guess the person who I regard as least town other than you and Vector is Lenglon but he's still pretty town.

You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when if I flip town? Who is your next suspect?

Lenglon.  But again, I don't think that will happen.

Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Because I want to see scum lynched.  If the town doesn't vote for the scum, the scum can come in later and use their votes to cause a no lynch or lynch a townie.  Kindof like what you just did by voting me with no reasoning at all.  I don't even think there's really anything to respond to here - you're saying that because I want to win, and that may mean I want to win as a mafia member, I'm a mafia member?  Or because I'm advising people to vote for the people who I think are mafia I'm mafia?

Also, you've tied up the vote (to save your partner) with barely any time remaining.  I'd suggest voting for an extension if you want to pretend that you have the town's interests at heart.

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

Can't you at least provide a one-liner summary, or an extension vote when the day is set to end before you come back to explain your vote?

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?

If you think TWS is buddying me then that contradicts your vote - there's no reason at all for a mafia member to buddy their partner.  They already know their partner is on their side.

[Vector]

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

[nightcrafter27]

Leafsnail

I believe that Dem was a panicking noob-town. Griffy lays into him with the pressure pretty hard starting here and doesn't let up, even when he knows the day will end before Dem reads his post.

[etc]

What's that example got to do with anything?  Firstly it happens after the event I'm referring to, and secondly Dem probably never even saw it so there's no way it could influence his behaviour (and if he did see it he didn't post about it, so again it's irrelevant).

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

In any case, Ranger was in more danger of being lynched at the time of the events I was referring to - why should Dem have been panicking?  And further, I do not see why panicking would cause you to not vote a person you thought was the mafia rolecop or shorten the day at such a silly time.

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

Here Dem is stating pretty much what you are looking for. Why is he not voting for who he suspects to be the mafia role-cop? Cado is "doomed", so Dem uses his vote to put some weight behind his case on Griffy. He thinks Griffy and Cado are the scumteam, so while everyone else has voted Cado a secured spot in the gallows, Dem is pursuing he next suspect.

If Dem wanted him lynched, he should have voted for him.  There is no meaning at all in pressure voting someone at deadline - you should always be lynch voting at deadline.  This applies double if someone is only leading by one vote - why not just make it clear Griffion was his secondary suspect while also locking in the lynch of someone he believed to be the strongest mafia role in the game?

I completely agree. Yes, he should have switched his vote to Cado. I don't know why he didn't, and the best reason I can think of is that his vote to shorten accomplished the same thing.

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

Its a fair point, but I don't think it was clear if Cado was a cop or not. I'm not talking about if Dem thought he was a town cop. I mean that if someone reading the thread at the time could derive that Cado was undoubtedly a cop. Even Vector expressed her doubts (which seems to be the basis of your case on her). While Dem might have thought he was a mafia roel-cop, I don't think he was certain. That, and Griffy was in his face.

Also, you say that if Dem were scum, he would know that Cado was the cop. Since when did the mafia already know the town power roles on day 1?

Now, something to keep in mind: the two mafia players knew that Cado was a cop.  I believe that the mafia would be highly reluctant to both vote for him for fear of looking bad later, but also that they wouldn't want to obstruct the lynch too hard due to the fact that otherwise they'd have to waste their nightkill on him.

With that in mind, I think Demdemeh is strongly scummy too, and I would support a lynch on him(?) too.  He loudly talked about how bad the claim was and kept saying that he was probably a mafia role cop, but then didn't vote him.  Considering that the mafia role cop is the most desirable lynch in the game that makes no sense at all.

Please explain how this makes sense. Scumteam Vector and Dem knew Cado was the cop. On day 1. Before the mafia role-cop could inspect. So apparently the mafia already know who has what role. Then what would be the point of a mafia role-cop?

You seem to be regarding Dem's being replaced as scum fleeing pressure. Do you? Why? Your question to me explicitly says this:

and it's a shame that Dem appears to have vanished because a lot of players seem to regard a replacement as a chance to wipe the slate clean.

(again, my bolding)

I don't see his replacement as scum fleeing pressure.  I was referring to other players in general, who often basically hit a reset button in their heads when a player is replaced (which would be bad because we're running out of time and you are scum).  I feared the same could happen in this game.

Fair enough.

Why did you not pursue this? You found something suspicious, pressure Shinigami/TWS. Who is your third scumpick? Do you even have one?

Because I had two scumpicks, and there are two scum in this game.  It was also a weak gut feeling.

Unless it's clear that your top two suspects are not going to be lynched today, there's really not much point in pursuing a third (and in that case you're probably chasing a compromise lynch on someone you don't really think is scum but who you think is better than the alternative).

I guess the person who I regard as least town other than you and Vector is Lenglon but he's still pretty town.

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

What happens if one or both of your top scumpicks aren't town, and you haven't pressured anyone else? This situation might sound familiar to you.

You are dead certain that Vector and I are scum. I can't speak for Vector, but what happens when if I flip town? Who is your next suspect?

Lenglon.  But again, I don't think that will happen.

So you won't pressure her today. At all. Ok, I'll ask this as a new player seeking advice from an IC. IF I get lynched today, and flip town, how do you expect the town to react to your actions? Even if you weren't an all powerful IC who obviously knows who the scum are. What would you do then?

Relating to above: You are "advising" everyone to vote to lynch me. I suppose that if I want town to win, I should follow your advice and vote myself. Or, you are scum, and so it would make perfect sense to lay down and die so you can win faster. You never specify who would be winning the game, Leafsnail. Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Because I want to see scum lynched.  If the town doesn't vote for the scum, the scum can come in later and use their votes to cause a no lynch or lynch a townie.  Kindof like what you just did by voting me with no reasoning at all.  I don't even think there's really anything to respond to here - you're saying that because I want to win, and that may mean I want to win as a mafia member, I'm a mafia member?  Or because I'm advising people to vote for the people who I think are mafia I'm mafia?

I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't believe in a pressure vote. That was inconsiderate of me. I wanted to see what would happen when one of your inactive scumpicks suddenly came back in earnest. Poke a hole and see what falls out, eh? You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players. I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

 I think that your attitude towards the current situation is stupid. Not scummy. Stupid. You aren't even considering the possibility of anyone else being scum. I am very interested in seeing how you answer my above question. Also, you didn't really answer this one:

Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

Also, you've tied up the vote (to save your partner) with barely any time remaining.  I'd suggest voting for an extension if you want to pretend that you have the town's interests at heart.

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

Right.  I'll start with this.

TheWetSheep is scum.  More tomorrow.

Can't you at least provide a one-liner summary, or an extension vote when the day is set to end before you come back to explain your vote?

She doesn't need to extend; I already provided the last one needed. Which you missed. It's ok. But why are you defending TWS? Isn't it according to your philosophies that you should make players defend their own cases, and not comment on others' cases?

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here?

If you think TWS is buddying me then that contradicts your vote - there's no reason at all for a mafia member to buddy their partner.  They already know their partner is on their side.

Here:

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

To me, this reads as TWS saying "Yes sir, you're the best sir." Why are you answering questions for TWS? Unless, of course,

• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail

They already know their partner is on their side.

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

Honestly, I can't determine your alignment because of WIFOM. Your current attitude is that you are going to get the town to lynch your two scumpicks. And then the game will end, because you are right. You are dead sure of who the scum are. This kind of thinking screams town to me. Scum couldn't afford to have only two dead certain cases, otherwise the town would turn on them when the lynch flips. No scum would ever do that, etc, WIFOM. You are scum. You are not scum. I can't read you, and trying to do so is a fruitless effort. We have the extension, and I want to see what Vector and Griffionday have to say before I put down a lynch vote. I have no read on her either, so I'll have to wait for her response to your case.


TheWetSheep: What is your view on Leafsnail defending you?


Griffinpup: What are your opinions on Dem's actions? On Leafsnail?


Giffionday:

I'll try and post something substantive tonight; final prep is killing me though.  (I'm not going to ask for a replacement, don't worry)

Didn't happen, and won't happen today either, I WILL post something Wednesday I promise.

I would very much like to see your views. What about Leafsnail's behavior seems more like scum, and less like belligerent town?

PPE: Vector

[Leafsnail]

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

But the specific example you mentioned could not possibly have had any effect at all.  So why did you mention it?

Yes, Griffionday said a few things to Dem.  No, one person taking a slightly tough tone with Dem does not explain or excuse his behaviour.

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

I do not think either of these explanations hold any kind of water.  There's no benefit in "earmarking" someone with a vote.  And OMGUS isn't a valid reason for voting someone.

Its a fair point, but I don't think it was clear if Cado was a cop or not. I'm not talking about if Dem thought he was a town cop. I mean that if someone reading the thread at the time could derive that Cado was undoubtedly a cop. Even Vector expressed her doubts (which seems to be the basis of your case on her). While Dem might have thought he was a mafia roel-cop, I don't think he was certain. That, and Griffy was in his face.

The basis of my case on Vector is that she seemed to think Cado was the cop, but that he should be lynched anyway.  If Dem was unsure whether Cado was a mafia rolecop he certainly didn't seem that way, considering he stated in no uncertain terms that was what he thought several times.

Also, you say that if Dem were scum, he would know that Cado was the cop. Since when did the mafia already know the town power roles on day 1?

He'd know who the mafia members were, and that Cado wasn't one of them.  Townies with any degree of experience do not lie about having a power role, so therefore Cado would have to be the actual cop.

Please explain how this makes sense. Scumteam Vector and Dem knew Cado was the cop. On day 1. Before the mafia role-cop could inspect. So apparently the mafia already know who has what role. Then what would be the point of a mafia role-cop?

They knew because Cado told them in the thread.  The point of the mafia role-cop is to find roles who do not reveal their identities in the thread

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

Yes, although now that you mention it that's also true.  Why are you trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS?

What happens if one or both of your top scumpicks aren't town, and you haven't pressured anyone else? This situation might sound familiar to you.

Then I lynch them and win.

Assuming you mean "are", then I have plenty of information to go on from how they've reacted to the case and jumped on/ evaded the wagons on my old suspects.

So you won't pressure her today. At all. Ok, I'll ask this as a new player seeking advice from an IC. IF I get lynched today, and flip town, how do you expect the town to react to your actions? Even if you weren't an all powerful IC who obviously knows who the scum are. What would you do then?

If you get lynched today then most of the rest of the players would agree with me that you appeared to be mafia, as I cannot unilaterally lynch someone.  If you were to flip town I'd hope the majority of players would be able to see that I arrived at my conclusions honestly due to the fact that I've clearly laid out my reasoning, and be able to identify by votecount analysis and wagon analysis who Vector's remaining partner is.

I'm sorry, I forgot that you don't believe in a pressure vote. That was inconsiderate of me. I wanted to see what would happen when one of your inactive scumpicks suddenly came back in earnest. Poke a hole and see what falls out, eh?

Making a pressure vote doesn't mean that the player being voted isn't allowed to criticize your weak reasoning.

You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players.

Did you seriously believe this was a possibility?

I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

I don't think proclaiming your towniness from the rooftops is productive.

I think that your attitude towards the current situation is stupid. Not scummy. Stupid. You aren't even considering the possibility of anyone else being scum.

But you're still voting me?

Also, you didn't really answer this one:

Why then, do you advise that every player tunnels your two scumpicks?

I don't understand what reasoning needs to be given beyond "I want scum to be lynched".  In any case asking people to examine my scumpicks doesn't necessarily mean advising them to tunnel.

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

I missed it, but I don't get why you're being so weirdly passive-aggressive.

She doesn't need to extend; I already provided the last one needed. Which you missed. It's ok. But why are you defending TWS? Isn't it according to your philosophies that you should make players defend their own cases, and not comment on others' cases?

No.  In fact, I specifically asked everyone to comment on my case, so it's more like it's exactly the opposite of my philosophy.  In any case, asking someone to provide reasoning can hardly be called a defense.

Here:

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

To me, this reads as TWS saying "Yes sir, you're the best sir."

Sure.  But as I said, if he's buddying me then that would make him scum and me town, since there's no point in trying to ingratiate yourself with someone you already know is on your team.  So it would contradict your vote.

Why are you answering questions for TWS?

I didn't answer the question - I was pointing out that it contradicted your overall point.  I don't understand what your votecount is supposed to illustrate.

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

I'm going to keep giving you rope.

Honestly, I can't determine your alignment because of WIFOM. Your current attitude is that you are going to get the town to lynch your two scumpicks. And then the game will end, because you are right. You are dead sure of who the scum are. This kind of thinking screams town to me. Scum couldn't afford to have only two dead certain cases, otherwise the town would turn on them when the lynch flips. No scum would ever do that, etc, WIFOM. You are scum. You are not scum. I can't read you, and trying to do so is a fruitless effort. We have the extension, and I want to see what Vector and Griffionday have to say before I put down a lynch vote. I have no read on her either, so I'll have to wait for her response to your case.

If you have no read on both me and Vector, why are you giving me so much attention and Vector none?  Why rely entirely on a case made by someone you don't think is town?

[Lenglon]

still waiting on vector before I'm going to really step in, but in the meantime...

Leafsnail: yesterday Vector advised me against chaining lynches and jumping to an interaction-based analysis, and yet today you seem to be basing part of your case on vector/nightcrafter on their interactions with each other. why is an interaction-based analysis acceptable now, but unacceptable yesterday?

for reference:

Why didn't she bring up Dem's strange willingness to shorten the day?  She mentioned that Dem was scummy earlier for "playing to the crowd", but when Dem brought up the shorten request she simply went along with it.
My answer is that she didn't want to bring up something so damning for her partner.

[TheWetSheep]

I'm done school! I'll have far more time to devote to this game now.


NightCrafter:

PFP

TWS:

Leafsnail:

Spoiler: TheWetSheep (click to show/hide)

TheWetSheep (formerly Shinigami_King): 1. I am sympathetic to having your prime suspect missing, but could you not at least ask other people what they think about that suspect, or chase up your secondary suspect (Griffionday)/null read (me)?

2. Have you got a read on Dem yet?

1. Yeah, I should be doing that, but I really don't have the time. The indefinite extension is really convenient for me, actually. I'll pressure people when I have more time. You are now reading town to me, actually, if only because I agree with your scumpicks and reasonings.

2. Yes, if I had to pick a scumteam it would be Vector and Dem. You bring up a really good point there, and in my reads post I go into a bit more detail on his jumping on Griffion.

Why are you buddying Leafsnail here? Do you have a case on either Vector or me besides what Leafsbail has already stated? Do you think Leafsnail softballed you with his next question to you ("Wen will you have time?", IIRC)? I have posted my ideas on the reasons for Dem's behavior. Do you agree with them? If not, that parts don't seem accurate?

If by "buddying" you mean "agreeing" then yes, that's what I'm doing. If he asks me for my reads then I'm going to them along with their reasoning. And that's what you see me doing. I'm not going to change my reads because somebody has the same ones.

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Vector, when will you be able to post some content?

Actually, I do have a case on Vector(it hasn't been answered yet though):

OK, first of all Vector:

Here is an excerpt of pre-game talk about the new setup:

Spoiler: Posts 27-37 (click to show/hide)

The one I suggested a while back was

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Huh, sounds good.

I am for that.

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

The important parts are Vector's posts, but I decided to blanket quote.

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

You put that much thought into the setup, but didn't know there was a sane cop? I doubt it.

Oh, and in the next post, another bit on Vector and a case on Demdemeh:

Vector:

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

Demdemeh:

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

That's a pretty big inconsistency, isn't it? Why did you say he basically claimed mafia, then say "he may very well be mafia"? Also, the first bold part seems like a scum capitalizing on a town's unlucky slip. This meshes with my scum read on Vector pretty well, actually, since Vector was the first person to point this out, and that's the kind of thing a scumpartner would say to give extra weight to the case.

I didn't really realize the significance at the time, but if Vector's scum the last point there is pretty telling, in my opinion.

I still want an an answer on this:

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector?

Vector:

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

Buddying? No. Agreeing? Yes. I don't think they're the same thing. See my response to NightCrafter.

Bandwagoning? I provided reasoning that was independent of Leafsnail's. Reasoning you haven't answered yet. (I'm not trying to rush you, sorry if it feels that way)

I looked through my posts and couldn't find the one you describe.

This post feels like you're just pulling scumtells out of a hat and throwing them at me. I await your "actual posts".

Leafsnail:

Why did Dem vote for the shorten when his vote isn't going to get anything accomplished? If you look at the votecount immediately following the post quoted above, RangerCado has 3 votes, and Dem has 2. He's worried that Cado and his scumbuddy Griffy will convince someone to switch their vote, lynching Dem instead. Now I have no idea why Dem didn't switch his own vote to Cado, but his vote to shorten does do the trick to get his scum pick of Cado lynched.

I agree that Dem wanted to see Cado lynched while not voting him.

That is also the reason why Dem, and by extension you, are scum.

The reason why he didn't want to switch to Cado was because he didn't want to be seen as the last person bandwagoning on someone he knew to be a cop.  He knew him to be a cop because he was a mafia member.

If he was town and genuinely thought Cado was the mafia rolecop, he'd have no reason at all to fear being on his wagon.  Because he was scum, he did.

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

[nightcrafter27]

Leafsnail

If you were to flip town I'd hope the majority of players would be able to see that I arrived at my conclusions honestly due to the fact that I've clearly laid out my reasoning, and be able to identify by votecount analysis and wagon analysis who Vector's remaining partner is.

Assuming you mean "are", then I have plenty of information to go on from how they've reacted to the case and jumped on/ evaded the wagons on my old suspects.

Cue epiphany. Ok. I get it now. I see how you are scum hunting. Before, I thought you simply would not do anything after the lynches, and got frustrated. It appeared to me that your hunting would never extend any farther from Vector or me. True, I don't feel that it is the 'best' method, but now I see that it is valid. This is where most of my misunderstandings came from. Unvote

(Just to be clear, when you say the bolded part, you mean by voting your third scumpick in a hypothetical situation, yes? The first time I read it, it seemed like you were accusing me of trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS)

Yes, although now that you mention it that's also true.  Why are you trying to deflect onto Shinigami/TWS?

This, for instance. I saw you as already having your two scumpicks, and just sitting on them, refusing to question anyone. I wanted to get you doing something to scumhunt, because it looked like you were being inactive.

I'm sorry, I thought you read my post. I did vote for an extension, in fact the last vote needed to extend the day. It's ok, it wasn't by your name, so you don't have to pay attention to it. Also, the old day end was tomorrow. Did you think that I would be as inactive as Dem?

I missed it, but I don't get why you're being so weirdly passive-aggressive.

Frustration.

He'd know who the mafia members were, and that Cado wasn't one of them.  Townies with any degree of experience do not lie about having a power role, so therefore Cado would have to be the actual cop.

-snip-

They knew because Cado told them in the thread.  The point of the mafia role-cop is to find roles who do not reveal their identities in the thread

I had assumed the mafia wouldn't trust Cado's claim. You did. Ergo confusion.

The first post I link is when Griffy first starts pressuring Dem. He even starts his post by FoS'ing Dem. I included links to the posts that Dem wouldn't/didn't see to emphasize that Griff continued his pressure. If you really want me to, I can link all of Griffy's posts regarding Dem that occurred before the vote to shorten. I trusted that you had read the thread, and would know that they talked.

But the specific example you mentioned could not possibly have had any effect at all.  So why did you mention it?

Yes, Griffionday said a few things to Dem.  No, one person taking a slightly tough tone with Dem does not explain or excuse his behaviour.

I honestly do not know why he didn't vote Cado. Using his vote to pressure Griffy and earmark him as the probably scumbuddy is my best guess. My next best would be that Dem was OMGUSing Griffy.

I do not think either of these explanations hold any kind of water.  There's no benefit in "earmarking" someone with a vote.  And OMGUS isn't a valid reason for voting someone.

These are the best explanations I have for Dem's behavior. I don't really know how else to put it.

I found it odd that you left it open to debate whether you wanted town to win or scum.

I don't think proclaiming your towniness from the rooftops is productive.

What would you consider being productive?

You didn't immediately back off, and you remain rigid to your belief. Now I know that you aren't acting this way because you are being intentionally stupid to try and teach the new players.

Did you seriously believe this was a possibility?

Unfortunately, yes.

Sure.  But as I said, if he's buddying me then that would make him scum and me town, since there's no point in trying to ingratiate yourself with someone you already know is on your team.  So it would contradict your vote.

Ok, I didn't see what you meant about contradicting my vote.

If you have no read on both me and Vector, why are you giving me so much attention and Vector none?  Why rely entirely on a case made by someone you don't think is town?

You are here and Vector isn't. Any questions I would ask Vector have already been asked, so I will wait until she gets back.

Also, what are you going to do to strengthen your cases? If things were as obvious as you say they are, then there should be no way the day would end in a tie.

I'm going to keep giving you rope.

Fair enough.


TWS

The way I read the part of your case you linked, its based on her claiming to not know there was a cop, yes? The way I am interpreting this quote from Leafsnail, he is saying the same thing when he says "Vector should know better."

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

All right, explain.  Why are you claiming?

Vector should know better,  and the way she didn't miss a beat after her initial attack was shown to be wrong was suspicious.

Asking when somebody will have the time to contribute is softballing? Why don't you ask Vector whether you think griffinpup was softballing with this too?

Honestly, I didn't want to tunnel Leafsnail, and I couldn't think of any questions. Yes, it is a terrible reason.

Nightcrafter: Once you've finished reading, what's your opinion on Vector?

I'm having difficulty reading Vector. I see what points you and Leafsnail have in your cases on her, but I also see the logic of the WIFOM created by letting Cado live. I hope to get a better stance on her once she responds to the case made against her.

[Leafsnail]

still waiting on vector before I'm going to really step in, but in the meantime...

Leafsnail: yesterday Vector advised me against chaining lynches and jumping to an interaction-based analysis, and yet today you seem to be basing part of your case on vector/nightcrafter on their interactions with each other. why is an interaction-based analysis acceptable now, but unacceptable yesterday?

Because I don't have exactly the same playstyle as Vector, and therefore there's no reason to suspect that we'll share the exact same views on everything?  Also Vector is a mafia member and may have been trying to discourage anyone from looking at the associative tells she was building with Dem.

The italicized part boils down to "No no no you're scum". The other part is faulty logic. You're assuming that a town Dem would have been absolutely sure that Cado was the mafia rolecop. Since that probably wasn't the case, he would be justified in being nervous about being on the wagon.

The italicized part is my explanation, and I think it is far more plausible than any other explanation offered for Dem's behaviour.

Dem said he thought Cado was the scum cop, and after he was told there was no godfather he should have switched:

That last statement about town taking out the power roles just kind of clinches it for me, I think. RangerCado is the scum cop, and GDay is his godfather friend.

Further, if he doubted that Cado was scum he shouldn't have hit shorten, which as others have said is like voting for Cado only less reliable from a town perspective (also he probably wouldn't have FoS'd Cado twice while talking about how scummy he was).

I'll respond to nightcrafter in a new post.

[Leafsnail]

Cue epiphany. Ok. I get it now. I see how you are scum hunting. Before, I thought you simply would not do anything after the lynches, and got frustrated. It appeared to me that your hunting would never extend any farther from Vector or me. True, I don't feel that it is the 'best' method, but now I see that it is valid. This is where most of my misunderstandings came from. Unvote

Ok.

I had assumed the mafia wouldn't trust Cado's claim. You did. Ergo confusion.

This is a general principle, incidentally - mafia members can trust claims and the like a lot more easily because they know who the lying mafia members are.

These are the best explanations I have for Dem's behavior. I don't really know how else to put it.

Fair enough

What would you consider being productive?

1. Identifying scum
2. Taking measures to get scum lynched

Unfortunately, yes.

Why?

Ok, I didn't see what you meant about contradicting my vote.

Voting me would suggest that I you thought I was scum, which would contradict the question which assumed I was town.  It doesn't matter now though.

You are here and Vector isn't. Any questions I would ask Vector have already been asked, so I will wait until she gets back.

I suppose.

[Tiruin]

The day has been extended!

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(0) -
• nightcrafter27(0) -
• TheWetSheep(1) - Vector
• Vector(2) - TheWetSheep,  Leafsnail
• Leafsnail(1) - Griffionday,
• Not Voting(3) - nightcrafter27, griffinpup, Lenglon

nightcrafter27 has replaced Demdemeh


Day 2 has begun and will end at June 14, 2013. [Friday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 1 (Over the limit before I had to post; Vector)
Shorten requests: 0

3 votes needed to extend the day
4 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!


"It's too quiet."

[Griffionday]

Sorry about taking so long, my flank is really taking a beating this quarter...

Enough excuses! On to answers!

Sheep:

Hmm. If you were scum, do you think you would pay more or less attention to the game? I'm pretty sure that if I was scum I'd be be paying extra attention. I can see not expanding ones reads as a scumtell, but apathy? I can't see it.

As I see it; that depends on the type of apathy.  I agree that by itself it is more of a null tell as the reason for the apathy might be anything; particularly when one is apathetic about the game in general.  However, I feel that apathy about one's own reads (town and scum) and building them on everyone IS a scum trait.

My reason for thinking so is fairly simple: town lives or dies by their reads, as such they carry significant emotional weight.  Scum on the other hand have less reason to be so invested in their reads: after all, their survival and victory is based on OTHER people's reads.

nightcrafter:

Giffionday:
I would very much like to see your views. What about Leafsnail's behavior seems more like scum, and less like belligerent town?

Hopefully my views on Leafsnail will more evident in a bit; as for what I was thinking about his behavior at the time: He came into the game attacking rather than addressing any pressure on his position.  At the time it seemed merely odd, on review I now see it more as abusing the mental auto reset you brought up.  Considering his insistence that the case on you must not be automatically dropped (which I agree with) this seems suspicious to me.

Leafsnail:

So the fact that he had been off the forum for almost three days meant nothing?

Not really, no.  They may have just not bothered to log in during the night and then had a weekend away from home.

Bullshit.  Dem was absent from the foroums from 28th through the 31st, also known as Tuesday through Friday, and nights are know to be 1 day.

You hadn't read the game when you made your cases:

Not re-read, just read.  You never comment on what your read indicated, and whether it improved your confidence in your reads, you just were like: "Yep we're good here, lynch these two now."

It was a long thread, so I focused on the most interesting and relevant part of it to start with (cops claiming is gonna cause mafia members (who know it's the real cop) to react differently to townies (who don't), which helps distinguish them).  I feel the cases derived from that part were strong.

I don't think any of the rest of the thread does anything to go against a Vector/Dem scumteam - I think the way Vector completely failed to engage Dem, while doing so with basically every other player, throughout almost the entirety of day 1 is pretty telling too.

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out? 

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

Your reasoning regarding ICs is incorrect.  A moderator will always assign roles to players completely randomly unless otherwise stated in the OP - thus both ICs being scum is no less likely than any other random pair of players being scum.  I'm pretty sure there was a BM where both ICs were scum, in fact.

I invite you again to consider who your secondary suspect is, considering the interactions of players rather than trying to outguess the moderator.

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops; however, as you insist, and I'm not really applying any pressure to anyone else:

Well, it probably isn't griffinpup, as you confused him with me.
It almost certainly isn't Vector, as I doubt you would bus her while she was away if she were your partner.
Lenglon... Possible?  I could make a case for this based on her interactions with you; specifically the lack of real substance there and no desire from either of you to continue when not prodded to do so, but a couple of my reasons for suspecting her are actually apposed to a her and you team.
Sheep has been acting odd, and YOU are really happy to deny that you are a scum team on the grounds of buddying causes the buddied to automatically be town.  His recent post is intriguing and feels genuine though so...
nightcrafter is also a possibility, as you did set him up to be bused pending replacement, but at the same time gave the slot time to fill before pressing it.  This actually would explain certain town tells I picked up from Dem perfectly.

So yeah... that was a waste of my time, but there you have it: as far as I can tell the scum team is you-nightcrafter, you-Sheep, or you-Lenglon.

Sleep now, more tomorrow.

[Leafsnail]

Bullshit.  Dem was absent from the foroums from 28th through the 31st, also known as Tuesday through Friday, and nights are know to be 1 day.

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out?

I don't understand what you mean by hasty.  I saw evidence that Vector was scum and presented it.  I don't think you need to trudge through an entire thread in order to have a good case, particularly if there's only one interesting section.

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

I don't understand what you mean.

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops

You are very wrong on this point.

If you're right then there's another lynch on scum you can support if the first lynch isn't possible, and it also strengthens your case/ reads if you can try and identify the true scumteam.  In addition, the idea that scum benefits from being "warned" that someone thinks they're scum (rather than pressured by someone questioning them as scum) is laughable.

If you follow the logic for "if I'm wrong" then you wouldn't call someone scum ever, because if you're wrong then you're reducing pressure on the actual scum.

Well, it probably isn't griffinpup, as you confused him with me.
It almost certainly isn't Vector, as I doubt you would bus her while she was away if she were your partner.
Lenglon... Possible?  I could make a case for this based on her interactions with you; specifically the lack of real substance there and no desire from either of you to continue when not prodded to do so, but a couple of my reasons for suspecting her are actually apposed to a her and you team.
Sheep has been acting odd, and YOU are really happy to deny that you are a scum team on the grounds of buddying causes the buddied to automatically be town.  His recent post is intriguing and feels genuine though so...
nightcrafter is also a possibility, as you did set him up to be bused pending replacement, but at the same time gave the slot time to fill before pressing it.  This actually would explain certain town tells I picked up from Dem perfectly.

So yeah... that was a waste of my time, but there you have it: as far as I can tell the scum team is you-nightcrafter, you-Sheep, or you-Lenglon.

I agree that was a waste of your time because that was a hilariously bad attempt at analysis.  You've left open over half of the possibilities (3/5) while admitting that none of them are really satisfying, and the reasoning for excluding a me/griffinpup team is awful.

Basically, if there are two or more mafia members alive, you should have a secondary suspect, and also you should be thinking about whether the secondary suspect makes sense relative to the primary suspect.

[Griffionday]

Leafsnail:

Please recall that not arguing your case itself.  What I'm saying is your case was presented as a rubbish case that you defended as an intelligent case based on your reads.  You admit that it came before a full read of the game, why so hasty to get your case out?

I don't understand what you mean by hasty.  I saw evidence that Vector was scum and presented it.  I don't think you need to trudge through an entire thread in order to have a good case, particularly if there's only one interesting section.

You replaced in for someone who people thought was suspicious (I don't have time to trawl for the pressure right at this minute, but will eventually), and yet your first posts never even mentioned this, and rather jumped straight to your attacks.  You wasted no time trying to figure out if the context of Vector's actions made reasonable sense for a townie to take (or if you did you never commented on them) and your pressure on Dem barely touched the surface of what seemed suspicious about him to me, so yeah; hasty and weak.

Oh, right, Vector was gone.  You backed off, willing to play the slow game when I initially called you out on this, attempting to deflect my attention to your case as apposed to your tell, and hoping to catch town out on another angle.

I don't understand what you mean.

Sorry for being unclear: Your case was hasty so you could get it out and lynch Vector before she could return.  The rest is speculation on your actions post my voting you.

I've been over why I consider this a bad idea.  If I'm right, the partner gets warning, if I'm wrong the pressure on your partner from me drops

You are very wrong on this point.

If you're right then there's another lynch on scum you can support if the first lynch isn't possible, and it also strengthens your case/ reads if you can try and identify the true scumteam.  In addition, the idea that scum benefits from being "warned" that someone thinks they're scum (rather than pressured by someone questioning them as scum) is laughable.

If you follow the logic for "if I'm wrong" then you wouldn't call someone scum ever, because if you're wrong then you're reducing pressure on the actual scum.

Hmmm... I think I see what you mean.  By not following your example of having exactly two cases that I'm willing to lynch on basis of my reads at this moment I'm unable to jump from tunnel to tunnel as it suits my needs.  Also you are completely correct that I should call people scum at the drop of a hat as that is the most intelligent and well thought out strategy in the game.  Are you mental, or just covering for your shoddy play?

I agree that was a waste of your time because that was a hilariously bad attempt at analysis.  You've left open over half of the possibilities (3/5) while admitting that none of them are really satisfying, and the reasoning for excluding a me/griffinpup team is awful.

Basically, if there are two or more mafia members alive, you should have a secondary suspect, and also you should be thinking about whether the secondary suspect makes sense relative to the primary suspect.

Look scumbag; I thought I made this clear: Unlike you I DON'T KNOW who the scum are.  As such everyone is suspicious to me, but at the same time everyone is possibly town as well.  I DO NOT consider cases that are based on the interplay of my target and them to be in anyway conductive to actually finding the scum.  It reeks of telling oneself a tale to validate your guesswork; which WILL bias you no matter how hard you try.  Those interactions aren't going anywhere, they'll still be there when we lynch you, as such I will wait until THEN to bring them up.  Anything else is baseless speculation; as such, I'm sorry I posted those reads and sunk to your level of play.

Could into detail on why buddying is considered a scum tell?  I'm going somewhere with this, so please humor me.

[Lenglon]

ok, this is getting unacceptable. Vector, you haven't followed up on this

Whoops, Extension.

TheWetSheep is scum because he's buddying, bandwagoning, and my gut is ringing with the force of a million cowbells.

For example, in the post where he votes me he cites some very shoddy reasoning and then goes on about how he has "many other reasons," but doesn't detail anything.

I will do a version of this with actual posts soon.

at all for 36 hours.

please, expand on your case on sheep or respond to at least some of the accusations against you. there's only 28 hours left before the end of this super-extended day and you have a lot of talking to do yet.

really, all that has been going on as far as I can see is Griff and Leaf dukeing it out, since there's nothing better for them to do. could you please respond to Leafsnail's accusations? they've kinda taken center-stage all day.

Day: The horse has been dead for about two pages now. beating it more will not bring it back to life.

Nightcrafter: what do you think of the accusations Vector leveled against sheep?

Sheep: working on the principal that Vector flips scum, do you think that Leafsnail's accusation of Nightcrafter being her scumbuddy holds water? do you consider the way Nightcrafter voted Leafsnail a form of chainsaw defense? what of the way that Day has been tunneling Leaf all day long?

Leaf: in an effort to be charitable to Vector, and assume that your accusations of her got lost in the last several pages, could you please repost your accusations and questions of her?