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[Tiruin]

Vote standings:

• Griffionday(0) -
• Lenglon(0) -
• griffinpup(1) - Griffionday
• Demdemeh(0) -
• TheWetSheep(2) - Vector, griffinpup
• Vector(0) -
• Leafsnail(1) - Lenglon
• Not Voting(3) - Leafsnail, Demdemeh, TheWetSheep

TheWetSheep has replaced Shinigami_King

Day 2 has begun and will end at June 4, 2013. [Tuesday] 9:00 pm [GMT//UTC +8]

Extension requests: 0
Shorten requests: 0

4 votes needed to extend the day
5 votes needed to shorten the day

Praise be, for Think's LurkerTracker!


The rays from the skylights converge and form a cylinder of light, moving ever so slowly as the minutes pass by.

[TheWetSheep]

OK. I was not totally expecting being put in here this quickly, but whatever. Just a note, though: activity might be a problem for me, since school is ending in two weeks and the workload's getting intense.

I'll do a read-over and come back with more.

[Lenglon]

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

[griffinpup]

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

I'll have to disagree on that point.  I'm fairly certain Griffy is voting Griffy.

[Lenglon]

(um, Tiruin, day's voting for pup, not for himself.)

I'll have to disagree on that point.  I'm fairly certain Griffy is voting Griffy.

griffinpup

I'm quite certain he is not.

[griffinpup]

 . I guess we'll just have to disagree on that point. 

[Tiruin]

I blame you both being warm and fluffy. Griffons... :I

[TheWetSheep]

OK, first of all Vector:

Here is an excerpt of pre-game talk about the new setup:

Spoiler: Posts 27-37 (click to show/hide)

The one I suggested a while back was

2 of 3
One of the following setups is used:
1. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 5 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop, Jailkeeper.
2. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Sane Cop.
3. 1 Mafia Goon, 1 Mafia Role Cop, 6 Vanilla Townies, Jailkeeper.

(Jailkeeper roleblocks and protects their target)

Yeah, that's a pretty good setup. Are you up for that, Tiruin?

Huh, sounds good.

I am for that.

Sounds good to me. How about you, Tiruin?

Shinigami: Why are you trying to make excuses for scummy play you scum?!? dont you dare try to throw up a smokescreen like this!!
 

An emoticon as well as a interrobang?! Do you have no respect?! This is a very formal place where people put important time into this serious game. To be so informal  If anyone is scum, it would be you Lenglon

Actually, no.  I dislike the Jailkeeper because they can do no wrong.

Blocking the cop isn't "doing wrong"?

It's an odd comment since it's actually the only role out of Cop, Doctor and Jailkeeper that can have a negative impact.

Missed it. Oh well, I'm leaving for about a week soon, so that'd be a problem anyway.

Replacement List, but only after June 1.

Yeah, but there's the second setup...

He doesn't know if he's in the second setup.  In any case it's no different from the doctor (his actions never have a negative effect) or a cop (always gets a useful result).

Generally speaking a jailkeeper is stronger than a doctor if there's no cop around (good - a doctor is way too weak on his own) and weaker than a doctor if there is one.  Their power is roughly comparable to a cop (he's good at stopping kills, but his inspection power is pretty weak because he can't tell whether a kill was prevented because he blocked someone or because he protected them).

Okay, that's fair.  No objections.

The important parts are Vector's posts, but I decided to blanket quote.

Ah wait.  I missed seeing the sane cops in the above setups.  Fuck me.

You put that much thought into the setup, but didn't know there was a sane cop? I doubt it.

Regardless.  Whoever replaces Shinigami.  What are your current opinions and reads?  What do you think about your predecessors play so far?  Do you agree with his reads, or not?

I'll do a more full compilation of this stuff later. I just got back from a week-long trip and I'm tired. I can say one thing, though: Reading through his posts, I get a pretty strong scum read of Shinigami. I would totally pressure him on a bunch of things if he wasn't me and guaranteed town(for me, at least).

Griffionday:

griffinpup:

That's it. Replacement. I'm way too busy and toon mafia just started. I really wanted to go all the way through this but my gameplay is the sh*ts right now. Sorry.

Is it wrong if I take this as a victory? ya, I guess it is.  Sorry to see you leaving King.

Yes it's VERY wrong to see that as a victory.  Pushing someone out of the game is not a victory for town; it doesn't indicate anything about your case other than that it was taken to harshly, and having to get a read on a replacement sets us back over a whole day of discussion with them it cools any leads on them and is in general BAD.  Why would you see this as a victory?  Was it a case that you were making up as you went along and you see his departure as validation that you are capable of faking it?

Does this make him scum? I see that comment as something that's quite independent of his alignment.

[TheWetSheep]

General Reads List:

Griffionday: Slight lean scum. This is mostly because in Magic Mafia I got a very strong town read from him, but in this one not so much, but that could just be because of his increased lack of time. A few of his cases seem pretty weak, but that's something I often do as well when I don't have strong reads. There was that slip, too.

Lenglon: Lean town. Haven't seen too much from her, but she seems to be doing quite well.

griffinpup: Town. Brings up many good points, hunts well, and hasn't made many slips or tells.

Demdemeh: Null, hasn't posted enough to get much of a read on. Will look at him closer later hopefully.

Vector: Scum, for reasons in my previous post and more. Leafsnail brought up a good point; she should have known not to lynch a cop claim D1. Her initial reasons for voting Ranger were erroneous, but she kept it there saying that we had to lynch him to get rid of the WIFOM. This isn't true; I'll explain why below.

Leafsnail/Ford: Null read off Ford(I really need to read back more), and Leafsnail just replaced in, so I'll hold off judging for now.


Vector:

Now that this has happened we practically have to lynch you in order to lift the WIFOM.

This is stupid. Sure, it forces our jailkeeper into WIFOM, but also the scumteam. Can you explain exactly why you thought we should lynch Ranger?

*Sigh* Remembered Vector's gone for a while. Too bad.

Demdemeh:

Well, since GDay all but claimed mafia up there, and implied that you were a mafia power role with the whole "don't make all our power roles vulnerable to town" thing, I think it's natural to wonder if any other power roles are involved, don't you? Of course, GDay may very well BE mafia, and be attempting to bus you as the actual Town Cop, but that is, of course, WIFOM. As for myself, I think that I've gotten enough ammo lately to feel pretty strongly that GDay is scum, what with the rampant misinterpretation and attacking in the last posts addressed my way, and with the whole typo thing. That just seems like too much of a Freudian slip to me, and I don't think that it's likely that GDay has played enough scum roles in the past to justify that sort of thinking without actually being scum this time. It's just too convenient a typo, really, and there's nothing to gain from looking that scummy, especially on day one; not from an actual townie, anyway.

That's a pretty big inconsistency, isn't it? Why did you say he basically claimed mafia, then say "he may very well be mafia"? Also, the first bold part seems like a scum capitalizing on a town's unlucky slip. This meshes with my scum read on Vector pretty well, actually, since Vector was the first person to point this out, and that's the kind of thing a scumpartner would say to give extra weight to the case.

[Leafsnail]

I'll try and read the whole thread tomorrow, but for now I'm focusing on the period from when RangerCado claimed (Reply #365) to when he was lynched (Reply #480).

I've already expressed my opinions on Vector.  Now, something to keep in mind: the two mafia players knew that Cado was a cop.  I believe that the mafia would be highly reluctant to both vote for him for fear of looking bad later, but also that they wouldn't want to obstruct the lynch too hard due to the fact that otherwise they'd have to waste their nightkill on him.

With that in mind, I think Demdemeh is strongly scummy too, and I would support a lynch on him(?) too.  He loudly talked about how bad the claim was and kept saying that he was probably a mafia role cop, but then didn't vote him.  Considering that the mafia role cop is the most desirable lynch in the game that makes no sense at all.  Furthermore:

I'm tired of waiting, too. Shorten.

The person he was voting for clearly wasn't getting lynched.  So why did he ask for a shorten?  If he wanted RangerCado to be lynched, he should have voted for him while making the shorten request.  If he wanted Griffionday to be lynched he should have been trying to convince other people to vote him, and certainly should not have been trying to prevent that from happening by shortening the day.  As it is I cannot see any explanation for his actions other than "He was scum and didn't want to get into trouble for placing the last vote on a cop".

Lastly, I find Vector's silence on this whole matter baffling.  I think she may have been hoping that with Ford quiet, nobody would notice what Dem was doing.

As a quick side note, I found Lenglon's reaction to RangerCado's claim fairly convincing, while Shinigami's seems a little more forced.

Leafsnail: mind answering the question I asked Ford last week? it's really, really, really simple. What is your opinion of Day?

It took me a while to realize that Griffionday and griffinpup are two separate players.  Now that I am aware they are, I strongly lean towards Griffionday as town.  His thought processes seem honest and his clear statement of reads, particularly town reads, is something scum usually does not like to do.  His buddying with Vector early on was kindof weird, but I think Vector is probably scum and there's no reason at all to buddy up to your partner.

Either IC: How do you suggest reacting to replacements mid-game? is it any different from replacements earlygame or lategame? is it reasonable to react to a replacement with a mini-RVS phase to get a feel for how they play?

You don't really need "random" votes - just asking them about the important aspects of the game should be sufficient.  If lynches have already happened it would be good to ask them what their opinion on the lynch and the people driving it are, for instance.

For early game replacements a couple of RVS type questions would probably the best way to approach it.  Late game replacements are sortof painful, and it would be good to provide them with a summary of important events they need to look at first if the thread is really long.

[griffinpup]

Wet Sheep:  it'd be silly to hold you accountable for shinigami not answering questions, so Unvote.

[Lenglon]

Unvote: question answered

Leafsnail: you seem to strongly disagree with vector's reasoning about lynching ranger yesterday, could you please answer the questions I asked her and pup back then? or at least, whichever ones you have a different answer too from theirs.

[Leafsnail]

Pup: what about the case where we have no jailkeeper after all? I dont want him to become "confirmed town" through the silence of a nonexistant jailkeeper.

I don't know what this means.  You would want to lynch a guy who can prove himself to be town later?

Pup: how is having the real cop out themselves on day 1, before they've been able to get a single read, helpful to us?

It isn't.

It will let us solidify our read of Ranger, but it will also out them to the remaining scum, and we'll be in almost the exact same situation as before Ranger claimed.

Yes.

If we can figure out Ranger's alignment without leaving ourselves with no power roles, then we'll be in much better shape. Even if we end up leaving Ranger alive for now, can't the real cop counterclaim on day 2 or 3, after having gotten some reads, and maybe found the other scum as well?

Yes.

Is it really worth it to leave the town without power roles to kill one scum?

Later on, yes.  On day one, no.

Pup:Under what conditions, assuming that there are no further roleclaims, would you lynch ranger? He seems very scummy to me, but I understand why people would want to keep a power role in the game.

Lynching a cop claim day one is almost always a bad move unless there's a counterclaim (which there shouldn't be really).

If it's day two and there are two scum alive then they're a candidate.

[Griffionday]

griffinpup:

First of all, the post you quote is mainly for comic relief.  Only my comic relief, perhaps, but comic relief none the less.  I agree with your points about why Shinigami leaving is bad.  If you notice, my conclusion is, that it is wrong to see it as a victory. Shinigami's replacement request comes out as a net loss in our quest to lynch the scum.

I think I see your reasoning now, at the time it seemed to be borderline self-congratulatory; I see it for the joke it is now.

Now onto your questions.
Your first question is easily answered.  One reason too see this as a victory is that a problem, Shinigami's crappy play recently, will most likely be fixed.  A replacement is a great improvement over what Shinigami has been demonstrating over the past few days.  I am confused by your last question though.  Are you implying that my case against Shinigami was fake or made up?  Or that I don't really know how to play and am just blundering along hoping not to make too many mistakes?

Interesting way of considering Shinigami's replacement.  I see the purpose of these BM games is to improve people's play, so shinigami's poor play should be attempted to be fixed here, rather than replacing him for a better player.  However, I can't disagree that it will make the job of hunting scum easier for us.

I was implying that the self-congratulatory nature of your comment implied that your case on Shinigami could have been made up; as I understand it it's harder to make cases as scum.  I don't see you as blundering along, you seem too proficient for that.

I was illustrating the fact that whether bandwagoning existed or not couldn't be debated.  He admitted to it, and I was pointing it out.  I admit that I did put my answer to you in my article, where I should of kept it separate and purely to you, but the point is moot now anyways.  Shinigami isn't going to feel any more pressure from this ever again, and neither will his replacement.  Also, you don't get off the hook for doing something scummy merely by admitting to it, then say you're trying to improve.  Apologies don't change the fact that something scummy was done.  My plan on continuing pressure was to press this point depending on his answer and yes, force him to explain why he did so.  But again, the point is probably moot.

No you don't get off the hook for admitting to it; however, the act of admitting to it indicates something about how you observe it.  In Shinigami's case I personally felt that him admitting to it indicated that he was starting to realize that he was wrong to have done so; and felt that you could have began forcing him to explain why he did so sooner.

But one point that you seem to be missing is that my case wasn't built on his bandwagoning Lenglon.  It was built on his vague posts and lack of substance.  I didn't focus my 'attack' on his admission of wrongdoing.  I merely included it in my 'attack' to see what his explanation for bandwagoning would be.  I was obviously dissatisfied with his answer overall, and I asked him to explain it.  I was also building a case against him.  I was also putting pressure on him with my whole post.  I wanted to see how he would react, and I got to.  It might not of been the reaction I was hoping for, but it was still a reaction.

I'm aware of that, and the fact that I disagree with your one point doesn't indicate that I disagree with your case as a whole.  I'm focusing on that one point as I see it as the weak point of your argument, and where I should comment on.

Why would preparing a lynch case on Shinigami be bad?

It wouldn't be; however your comment seems out of place in a post that is primarily attempting to press Shinigami, as it's not something that he can really really respond to.
Sheep:

Does this make him scum? I see that comment as something that's quite independent of his alignment.

It does not make him scum directly; however, it is a comment that would come from different places mentally as town or scum, so I feel it's a valid point to press to help solidify my read on him.
Tiruin:  Demdemeh has been off the site for the past 5 days, at what point should he be replaced?

[griffinpup]

Bleh...  I spent all my energy on Shinigami and then he bailed.  Now I feel burned out.  What to do, IC's?

Griffionday:  OK, I also understand your points and acknowledge what you may have a different opinion on how I should of handled my accusation of bandwagoning.  Do you have any questions or specific sections of you post that you want me to respond to?  For now, I'll answer your original post.

Griffinpup:
Out of curiosity; why do you consider admitting to bandwagoning to be a scum tell?  Because it seems to me that it'd be much like admitting to tunneling, they're essentially apologizing for their actions, indicating that they realize they were playing poorly and that they intend to play better in the future.

Not that bandwagoning isn't a scum tell, but you're focusing on the admission of the action as apposed to the thinking behind the action.

I consider bandwagoning a scum tell, and the fact that he admitted to it made it so it could be proven that he was bandwagoning.  If someone asked me why my opinion on Lenglon changed, I wouldn't say bandwagon, I'd show him the differences and improvements in play Lenglon made.  I didn't want Shinigami to be able to say these, as that clearly wasn't the actual reason his opinion changed.

Lenglon:  Who do you think looks most scummy currently?  When and how do you plan on pressuring them?

Demdemeh:  You're gone again.  I don't like it.