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Author Topic: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)  (Read 2047 times)

kaenneth

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So, apparently, The Germans are sensitive about their capitals.

That is, the CaPiTaLiZaTiOn of words. Doing it wrong is rude, offensive, unprofessional, etc.

I'm supposed to find/figure out which other languages that our software is translated into care about capitalization. because right now we use CSS text transforms to force upper/lower case for a lot of text; and the Germans are Angry. You wouldn't like Germans when they are angry. (Don't mention the war)

Can anyone who is a native reader of non-english languages let me know if their language needs extra care in this area? The software is translated into most languages, except indian and african.
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Vector

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 07:39:26 pm »

Do you not understand why the upper/lowercasing in German is so important?  Like, it seems like you don't understand why they'd be pissed off.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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kaenneth

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 08:42:19 pm »

Well, I don't need to understand why, if I wanted to know, I would probably ask my German mom, or German dad, or the German guy in the office next to me, or the folks at the German deli I just went to for dinner...

I wouldn't mind being enlightened however.

My specific task is to find out what other languages this applies to, before we spend money sending screenshots out for language review. I have other resources, but since this is a largely subjective issue, I can't just go by facts and figures and published 'standards'.
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Vector

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 10:33:00 pm »

Well, this is largely because in German nouns are capitalized, and the language can get sort of confusing without it.  So it's like publishing something in English with no apostrophes, or something similar.  So, what I'm saying is: is the problem that you are looking for other languages that have different capitalization schemas than English?  Or are you looking for languages that have the same capitalization schemas as German?  I think you need to know what the problem is in order to specify what you're trying to find out!

None of the other languages I speak (English, French, Japanese, Russian) have issues like that, FWIW.  However, in French, "I" is never capitalized, and it would be very strange if it were.
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pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Blargityblarg

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2013, 03:10:51 am »

He's looking for languages with non-English capitalisation schemes, I think.
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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2013, 03:14:12 am »

However, in French, "I" is never capitalized, and it would be very strange if it were.
Do you mean the letter or the word? I mean I'm pretty sure you mean as a word, but if they have a single letter that is never capitalized that would be a little strange.

Vector

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2013, 03:40:40 am »

Yeah, the pronoun.  I mean, at the beginning of the sentence, but otherwise, no.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

chaoticag

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #7 on: May 15, 2013, 05:21:37 am »

Well, there's always Arabic, which doesn't have capitalisation, or punctuation (until about 100 years ago), or vowels (accents take the place of vowels, and are omitted). A while back when there was a point where the letters that roughly sound like b t th and y were indistinguishable, as well as y and a, f and q, and l and k, as well as various a sounds. This makes Arabic a context sensitive language, and it took a holy book and colonialism before they realised it was a bad idea, and there are better ways to write things down.
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Sir Finkus

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2013, 05:29:11 am »

Isn't this really the job of the person you're having do the translations?

I wouldn't be at all shocked if every language that uses capital letters has different rules for when they are used.

So in answer to your questions:
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I'm supposed to find/figure out which other languages that our software is translated into care about capitalization.
Probably all of them that use capital letters. 

Max White

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2013, 05:36:27 am »

i don't think many people would actually be offended if you didn't capitalize in english though... i wouldn't be fussed.

Mech#4

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2013, 06:58:10 am »

It would make it easier to read though, and I do think your product would look much more professional if you had proper capitalisation. It might not be totally necessary but it would show a degree of pride in your work.
It sounds a tad cheesy, but if officeguy at age of 55 translates a document and there's no capitalisation he might get a tad annoyed that he has to do the work himself and would thus think less about your product.


Er, I'm not saying your work would be recognised, but we all know people are more likely to complain then they are to praise. One less reason to complain is a plus yes? :P
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kaenneth

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2013, 03:01:44 pm »

OK, to clarify this is a program mostly for Windows, and in the new version we are trying to match the new Windows 8 'Metro' style. So it's a subjective choice between what the visual designers want for style vs. what linguists want for clarity. (I dislike that style myself, but I'm not a designer, and not the target user, so...)

So, where we used to have a menu named 'Items' with subitem 'Add an item', it's now (in English) 'ITEMS' 'add an item' which was done by forcing the string to upper/lowercase in code.

That code is being cut because some German users complained, and all the text in all languages should now be correct anyway. After that change is made, we'll have people in/from Germany review again to check if it's fixed, and keep going until they are satisfied.

My worry is that speakers of some other language are just as unhappy with it, but just didn't bother to complain. Everything will get reviewed for technical accuracy, but I'm trying to be proactive to find other languages that need special, subjective human review.

I feel like the expectation for translated software is pretty low and that non-english speakers just put up with it, or use the English version instead of the crap translations. And I hate it, I want people to be comfortable using computers in their native language without awkwardness or difficulty.
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Absolute Niro

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2013, 03:28:04 pm »

I speak Danish and Norwegian, and the only major difference in those is that you don't capitalize "I" (the word).

I do however speak some German as well, and I think those complaints sound really silly. You can often find strings of text in Germany that are fully capitalized for emphasis, such as in logos and stuff, just like you can everywhere else in the world. It's done for style or simplicity, you don't need to apply every rule of grammar to it. They're probably just being grammar nazis lol german police.
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Starver

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2013, 05:15:02 pm »

So, where we used to have a menu named 'Items' with subitem 'Add an item', it's now (in English) 'ITEMS' 'add an item' which was done by forcing the string to upper/lowercase in code.

For me, it looks like you're using capitalisation as a substitute for formatting/style.  You wish "Items" to be more prominent than "Add an item" (over and above the fact that one is parent, the other a child, which is generally a bigger hint... and in fact all I would use, in a standard menu system).

Seeing "ITEMS" in all-caps doesn't work for me in English (I rather expect a VETLA of some kind), as either part of a sentence or as an isolated word (outside of something like old Terminal displays where lower-case is rare, or upper-case is used where reverse-video or otherwise highlit formatting cannot be guaranteed on whatever VT-type might be being used).  And "add an item" in all-lower looks like lazy non-use of the shift key, in turn.  Obviously without seeing the context I can't tell if the style of this and related items works.  "Add an Item" might be even better, if "Item" is (effectively) a proper noun/name.  (e.g. your manual says something like "You can add any number of items to the Items list..." and "Each and every Item you define is... <blah-de-blah>".)  Or capitalise whatever the hot-key is, and the first letter.  "Add an Item" or "Add an item", perhaps.  If it's a classical drop-down menu then even if it doesn't have a "Ctrl-Shift-Alt-I" shortcut next to it, quick keyboard entry[2] may suggest something of that kind.

Not really able to speaking for the every day use of the German language (mein Deutsche is nicht sehr gut[1]), I do think that you really need to have local knowledge applied.  But you'll find yourself at the whim of individual opinions (even (especially?) for languages, such has German, which has had spelling reforms and the like instituted by various regimes over the years), for some standards.  Mk sur U dnt tlk 2 a txt-spk prsn![3]


Sorry, I may have strayed from my point, in the midst of writing this.  Still, HTHHAND.[4]




[1] But I know that the various "SdKfz" or "Sd.Kfz" vehicles' prefix stand for "SonderKraftfahrzeug", with |Sonder|Kraft|fahrzeug| roughly being |Special|?Purpose?|vehicle| and "StuG" is "SturmGeschutz", or Assault(/storming) Gun/cannon.  With some accented characters in there somewhere.  Capitalisation is part of the word construction, as I understand it.  "Fahrzeug" is a "(far/distance)-thing", i.e. "vehicle" and has become a subservient component of the "Special Purpose" part so perhaps for that reason loses any inherent noun-capitalisation.  The word "Nazi" doesn't come from "Nationalsocialist" (De: "Nationalsozialistische") but is actually a derogatory comparison of the first two syllables of "NationalSozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei" (NSDA, isn't it?  Or NSDP to end with "Party"...  I forget) with the Bavarian (I think) version of the name "Ignatius", which typically (and pre-Hitler) depicted a "local yokel" figure of fun.  Equivalent to "Murphy", "Enoch and Eli", or "Cletus", from other parts of the world.  But sorry if I've now Godwinated this thread... ;)

[2] Consider whether the user can go "Alt-I" "I", or "Alt-I" "A" or even "Alt-I" "M" for "Add an item" (the 'm' left uncapitalised) if you've got a bad case of too many similar initial letters in various items.

[3] Or for those nearly at least approaching my age, B1FF-SPEAK or 1337-5P34K.  In fact, what was the old adage?  "ALL CAPS TALK LEADS TO B1FF T4LK.  B1FF T4LK LE4D$ 2 W4r37_ t4LK.  W4r3Z t/\1k L34d$ 2 31337 \/\//\r37_ |>0o|) 7/\|_|<,  4|\||) 7|┐3|23 7!┐3 |)/\|2|( 51|)3 |_13$" Or something like that...

[4] Or just "Hope That Helps, Have A Nice Day.", if you prefer.
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Leatra

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Re: CAPLOCKS RAGE AROUND THE WORLD (Non-english speaker info needed)
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 09:31:54 pm »

Turkish is easy. We only capitalize the first letter of the word after a sentence. Just like English, except for the capitalization of "I" pronoun. Also, "i" and "I" are totally different letters. "i" (upper-case "İ") has nothing to do with the English "I". They are not capitalizations of "I" (lower-case "ı").

I highly doubt whatever you guys are doing is translated into Turkish but eh, just saiyan. Even if it's done wrong, the amount of fucks given would be below average.
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