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[Malecus]

Had a moment of inspiration as I drifted off to sleep last night regarding fortress set-up & Trade Depots.

Problem: Trade Depots are most efficient when placed near the heart of a fortress, but the caravan requirement of a trapless path creates vulnerability when invaders use the same path to attack.

Solution: Create two Depots; one for actual trade, and one to 'lure' the caravans on to the map.  The first Depot (which we'll call the "bait") is effectively detached from the fortress but is ensured to have map-edge access.  The second Depot (which we'll label as the "switch") is attached to the fortress but kept safe behind a raised bridge.  When the seasonal traders arrive on the map, the code will check for caravan access.  It will notice the bait Depot and send caravans.  The player then flips two levers (one raising a bridge to prevent access to the bait Depot, another lowering a bridge granting access to the switch Depot) and send a militia group to the entrance of the switch Depot.  The caravans enter the switch Depot (the player can raise the bridge after they pass to grant additional safety measures) and trading happens in whatever style the player so decides.  Potential invaders are denied an easy access route and the player need not worry about caravans bypassing an inaccessible site.

Is this a viable tactic, or did I forget something as I played the game out in my semi-concious mind?

[Victor6]

Based on past experience;- Multiple depots don't really work. Merchants will frequently get stuck trying to get to the wrong depot unless you switch before they enter the map.

Edit;- Post thinking time.

Problem: Trade Depots are most efficient when placed near the heart of a fortress, but the caravan requirement of a trapless path creates vulnerability when invaders use the same path to attack.

If this is your entire problem, then you're over-thinking your solution. Rather than trying to limit access to the depot from the traders side, limit it for the dwarves. Use drawbridges to create an airlock around the depot. Lock the merchants in during trades and keep your side closed when it's not in use.

[Larix]

Problems with depots are usually caused by the merchants leading pack animals - those path to the oldest allowed depot, completely ignoring accessibility. If you build the switch depot first, the setup should work, provided you get the bait depot locked up before the wagons reach it. The pack animal leaders will automatically path to the switch depot anyway, and won't need to re-path. The wagons might end up pathing all the way to whichever obstacle you put between them and the 'bait' depot before acquiring a new destination, which _can_ get them stuck if you're unlucky - this often means the caravan sits in place for a few days until one wagon breaks apart. This unlocks the other wagons but sends all merchants off the map without offering to trade with you.

If you build the 'bait' depot first, the pack animal leaders will path to it only, come hell and high water. Even if you make it completely inaccessible, they'll still consider it their only legal target and will freeze in place until you open it up again or forbid it.

I've played with alternating depots on a map for funsies, and with timely forbidding of the 'wrong' depot, it works reasonably well. Things get pretty damn annoying when you only remember that the wrong depot is 'live' after the caravan has already entered the map.

[VerdantSF]

Instead of a bait & switch, you can use the underground to your advantage. Place a trade depot in the center of the map, several levels down, with tunnels and ramps leading to the surface.  Caravans don't have far to go to leave the surface, no matter where they pop up on the map.  As soon as they pass the outer drawbridges, the levers are pulled, cutting enemies off.  I routinely get four wagons to safety underground before any ambushes can snag them.  I don't remember who originally came up with this idea, otherwise I would give him or her credit !

Underground Trade Network

[Oaktree]

That is similar to my older fortress designs that put out access tunnels to the four edges of the board for that same purpose.

What I do now is have one deep tunnel that qualifies for wagons that goes to one edge, surfaces near it, and then have the entrance walled and roofed in.  Including raised bridges as the walls to the edge of the embark.  It's the only valid path to the Trade Depot - and every caravan comes in that way.  The wagons will also exit that way, but guards and merchants with pack animals might take other fortress paths out.

That entrance might be "discovered" periodically by thieves, snatchers, or parts of ambush or siege squads.  So while the entrance and path is not trapped, there is a drawbridge available to seal it and I place watch animals in the tunnel to detect stealth units.

[Itnetlolor]

Oh, I've done this as my own method for some time now; except with a perimeter "cut-out" dry moat as my security perimeter to isolate outer visitors. A small chunk of land is reserved for caravans to be decoyed towards, and setup at, in case hostiles are far too many; and they serve as a cheap/free security tower as well, provided they have ranged units. Otherwise, they're plenty competent fighters until my teams come along, or clean up the remainder.

But considering they make it long before the invaders, I can ferry them into my base, and keep the enemy locked out; do my trade, and when they're ready to depart, use an alternative exit that's emptier for a safe exit, or set them off to mow down more forces for me, and maybe assist my cleaners to reset any jammed traps as well so when they're lured back to the main gate, they end up through the blenders one more time.

EDIT:
That underground trade network is brilliant. Even moreso; you can take advantage of the open space between the access ways, and with appropriate lockdown of certain gates (making access to central very long, or impossible for wagons, forcing 1x1 invaders (or elves) to cross the gauntlets of doom that lace the dark corridors that lead to the central depot. Of course, that will also require making a singular access point into your main fort, and be able to lock that down as well to course that as the only, or maybe "shortest", route to your base. Happy ‼funtimes‼ invaders.

[Magistrum]

actually I think that using my military to defend the caravan is the best, since that ads some challenge to the game.
I only seal off my fortress in case of sieges...
Also, can someone tell me what's a zerg rush in DF(David The Master played Starcraft 2 lately)?

[laularukyrumo]

Relating to the problem of ambushes following traders... creatures generally take the geometrically shortest path, no matter what, traps be damned. However, caravans need a 3x3 path. So, if you have a 1x1 path that cuts straight down the middle, and a nice, winding 3x3 path that snakes and takes lots of s-curves, potentially even crossing z-levels, then the invaders/ambushers will run straight ahead of the caravans, and probably get mutilated by your traps. You can even use repeating spikes to kill kobolds, since if you surround them with cage traps (which don't affect kobolds anyways, and will capture anything else), the merchants won't be able to cross them, treating traps as walls.

Also, english slang lesson: a "zerg rush" colloquially refers to a mass, mindless charge lead by a horde of units. Typically refers to a tactic where strategy is forsaken for the hope that sending enough guys will get it done, casualties be damned.

[Hamiltonz]

In Magic The Gathering it was refered to as a weeny deck.  It works when the defender has mostly large damage, slow cycle defenders.  Each weeny gets one-shot'd but the defender gets overwhelmed by the sheer number of attackers.

I'm sure the concept goes back even farther.  I believe the term 'cannon fodder' refers to the actual attacker where 'cannon' is the large damage slow cycle defender.

[Magistrum]

Also, english slang lesson: a "zerg rush" colloquially refers to a mass, mindless charge lead by a horde of units. Typically refers to a tactic where strategy is forsaken for the hope that sending enough guys will get it done, casualties be damned.

Thanks, I was thinking it was named that way because of the zergs(damm rushers, aways lose a worker to these small bugs)

[wierd]

Spoiler: Zerg rush! (click to show/hide)

Its mostly because zerglings are very inexpensive units, in all major categories. (Required creep, required minerals, required time to hatch.)

The "zerg rush!" Tactic exploits this fact, and the rusher funnels resources into making zerglings in massive numbers, then unleashing them on opponent bases, to disrupt and even halt tech tree buildup of opponents. In some cases opponent bases can be wiped out completely, due to the overwhelming numbers, and limited firepower of tier 1 tech defending units.

Best way to combat a zerg rush, is to move the outpost away from a wide, open, and indefensible location and employ chokeholds, so that the zerglings cannot swarm the base. Station pillboxed marines along the chokehold, and have reserve troops handy. Suitable chokeholds are rock formations, rivers, and ravines.  Ravines and valleys preferred, as the greater attack distance of the marine and the physical isolation of the valley cliff wall make for shooting fish in a barrel.

Protoss players are pretty screwed, being unable to move the main structues of the base. Auto defense turrets for protoss require power from pylons (at 150 minerals a pop), and lvl2 tech tree, IIRC. They are disadvantaged by time constraints.

*this has been a starcraft "let's play!" Educational message.

As for what a "zerg rush" in DF would be....

1) Computer sends many troupes of rhesus macaques all at once.
2) computer sends swarms of giant kias
3) user drafts every last fisher dwarf, hunter dwarf, lyemaker, animal caretaker, (and noble) in the fortress into a large military unit, foregoes training them, and simply deploys them against the goblin invaders, and let's armok sort it out.

[Magistrum]

Spoiler: Zerg rush! (click to show/hide)

Its mostly because zerglings are very inexpensive units, in all major categories. (Required creep, required minerals, required time to hatch.)

The "zerg rush!" Tactic exploits this fact, and the rusher funnels resources into making zerglings in massive numbers, then unleashing them on opponent bases, to disrupt and even halt tech tree buildup of opponents. In some cases opponent bases can be wiped out completely, due to the overwhelming numbers, and limited firepower of tier 1 tech defending units.

Best way to combat a zerg rush, is to move the outpost away from a wide, open, and indefensible location and employ chokeholds, so that the zerglings cannot swarm the base. Station pillboxed marines along the chokehold, and have reserve troops handy. Suitable chokeholds are rock formations, rivers, and ravines.  Ravines and valleys preferred, as the greater attack distance of the marine and the physical isolation of the valley cliff wall make for shooting fish in a barrel.

Protoss players are pretty screwed, being unable to move the main structues of the base. Auto defense turrets for protoss require power from pylons (at 150 minerals a pop), and lvl2 tech tree, IIRC. They are disadvantaged by time constraints.

*this has been a starcraft "let's play!" Educational message.

They're been niveled now, you can kill the zergs with your workers(or probes) and proceed to make a barrak+bunker to defend from the next wave.(portal and turrets if protoss) Don't worry, theres aways engounh time between the attacks.

[wierd]

Lol, never played starcraft 2.  Was responding from context of Broodwar.

Was very hard to defend "5 minutes game time protoss outpost" from south koreans playing starctaft zergling chess.

(Apologies for stereotypes. I work second, and at 2am central time US, its daytime in asia.)

[Itnetlolor]

Its mostly because zerglings are very inexpensive units, in all major categories. (Required creep, required minerals, required time to hatch.)

The "zerg rush!" Tactic exploits this fact, and the rusher funnels resources into making zerglings in massive numbers, then unleashing them on opponent bases, to disrupt and even halt tech tree buildup of opponents. In some cases opponent bases can be wiped out completely, due to the overwhelming numbers, and limited firepower of tier 1 tech defending units.

Best way to combat a zerg rush, is to move the outpost away from a wide, open, and indefensible location and employ chokeholds, so that the zerglings cannot swarm the base. Station pillboxed marines along the chokehold, and have reserve troops handy. Suitable chokeholds are rock formations, rivers, and ravines.  Ravines and valleys preferred, as the greater attack distance of the marine and the physical isolation of the valley cliff wall make for shooting fish in a barrel.

Protoss players are pretty screwed, being unable to move the main structues of the base. Auto defense turrets for protoss require power from pylons (at 150 minerals a pop), and lvl2 tech tree, IIRC. They are disadvantaged by time constraints.

*this has been a starcraft "let's play!" Educational message.

As for what a "zerg rush" in DF would be....

1) Computer sends many troupes of rhesus macaques all at once.
2) computer sends swarms of giant kias
3) user drafts every last fisher dwarf, hunter dwarf, lyemaker, animal caretaker, (and noble) in the fortress into a large military unit, foregoes training them, and simply deploys them against the goblin invaders, and let's armok sort it out.

About #2, I know the game has those annoying-as-hell birds; but I don't remember seeing anything about giant freaking cars attacking the fortress.

Spoiler: Crap, I think we spotted a herd of them coming from another mountainhome they ravaged. (click to show/hide)

[CaptainLambcake]

WWWWWBBBWWWWW
W                            W
W                            W 
W        DDDDD         W
B         DDDDD         W
B         DDDDD         W
B         DDDDD         W
W        DDDDD         W
WWWWWWWWWWWW

W=Wall
D=Depot
B=Bridge

Just make that, and have the bridge on the Western side lead into your fortress.  Have that closed, and have the Northern bridge open at all times.  When a caravan arrives to trade, allow them all into the depot before closing the Northern bridge, then open the Western one.  Now, your dwarves can trade.