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[Scoops Novel]

The obvious one is how to spot the susceptible in a crowd, and how you know this . How does resistance appear? Is there any validity to the brute force approach depicted in media? What are the hard limits? How do existing psychological conditions come into it? How do people react before and after? How many have punched you?

[Neonivek]

The obvious one is how to spot the susceptible in a crowd, and how you know this . How does resistance appear? Is there any validity to the brute force approach depicted in media? What are the hard limits? How do existing psychological conditions come into it? How do people react before and after? How many have punched you?

Ok let me see

How to spot the susceptible in a crowd
-The hypnotist isn't doing nothing when he is up there talking about hypnosis or himself. He is actually doing an induction and is trying to spot people in the crowd who are falling for it. Since the level of sensitivity is 5-10% it means that in a crowd of 100 he has 5 to 10 volunteers. Plus he can plant more himself (In fact it is common for a hypnotist to specifically get sensitive subjects to sit in the crowd... OR to fake it). The second trick is that quite a few people will fake being hypnotized when in a crowd of hypnotized (or seemingly so) people.

How does resistance appear?
-Well resistance to hypnosis itself is usually just the inability to handle the type of induction being performed or just inexperience or fear with the hypnosis structure itself. In terms of the subject being afraid that is one of the easier resistances to handle because hypnosis doesn't have to be dictated to people.
-It is actually quite complicated.

Is there any validity to the brute force approach depicted in media?
-Frankly? No. While I will say that hypnosis is a lot more dangerous then stage hypnotists will have you believe (for example in terms of "What can hypnosis make me do?" the answer is, anything alcohol could make you do), the idea of someone just forcing you down doing an induction and hypnotizing you is completely fiction, even if you were sensitive.

What are the hard limits?
-The Alcohol test: If you would do it while really drunk, you would do it under hypnosis. That is "The" hard limit.

How do existing psychological conditions come into it?
-For some conditions hypnosis is completely unsuggested. Scizos for example should not be hypnotized period because it can aggravate their condition. For others it just means that the phrasing needs to be different and that certain subjects should be avoided.

How do people react before and after?
-Before: Often fearful to approach and sometimes eager. For those most afraid I do subject lead hypnosis (basically I dictate nothing, I consistently ask the subject)
-After: They usually had a great time, some though have a condition I like to call "Hypnosis Amnesia" which is fairly common where they find it difficult to impossible to remember the session.

How many have punched you?
-Stage hypnotists job is to wow the crowd and thus they are the most invasive and abusive hypnotists you will see consistently. My job is to make sure the subject (the person being hypnotized) is having a great time and thus being invasive and abusive is the best way not to have that happen. In fact I tend to ask people what they want.
-That and I do the vast majority of it online so being punched is kind of hard through a computer screen or text... Though even then none of them would have punched me.

[Scoops Novel]

Heh. Well this has been fruitful. Thanks Neonivek. Incidentally, are there less well-known psychologcal techniques we might be interested in hearing?

[mercy4]

so how does one actually learn to meditate?

I began practicing mindfulness meditation about 4 years ago and it saved my life. I've read many books on the subject but I've never found a better book than this:

Mindfulness In Plain English
author: Bhante Gunaratana

It is a widely published bestseller but it is also available online for free: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe.html

It focuses on vipassana/insight meditation which is very similar (if not identical) to modern mindfulness practice, shikantaza, traditional zazen (w/o koans), or "transcendental meditation" which seems to have become very popular recently because of David Lynch, but I would suggest trying not to get caught up on the differences between all these. Most forms of meditation tend to have more similarities than differences. Vipassana is a great technique to start with, and this book is ^ fantastic.

[Knight of Fools]

I learned to meditate a while back, and the biggest thing that keeps me coming back to it is the focused state that I get during and after meditating. Like folks have said, there are a lot of ways to meditate, and it's really not possible to tell whether or not one specific method is better than another, or if they're all just different roads to the same destination. Whatever the case is, it's as beneficial for the mind as exercising can be for the body and is very much worth your time to learn and practice.

The reason most people don't simply post how to meditate: It's complicated, and even an overly simple how-to guide can grow into a daunting wall of text that, while informative, doesn't seem to convey the meaning a much more detailed and broader work does. An example follows in the spoiler.

Spoiler: I should have just referenced a book or something. (click to show/hide)

How I learned to meditate: From what I remember about brain scans they did on people that were meditating, sleep and meditation are closely related but not really. You're basically half meditating when you're asleep, so after waking up is a good time to start teaching yourself.

Give yourself an extra twenty minutes or so when you wake up in the morning. After waking up, before doing anything that'll wake you up fully (You can to the bathroom or get a drink of water), get in a comfortable upright sitting position. You want to be comfortable enough to not tire your muscles out or get any aches, since that'll distract you, but you don't want to be completely relaxed because you'll just fall asleep again, even if you do manage to start meditating. There are positions masters, teachers, and hobbyists will swear to, but I don't think they're incredibly important at this stage. Find a good balance and you'll be fine, no need to sweat the details.

Once you're ready, count down slowly from 100 down to 1, giving yourself a brief pause between each count. Go with whatever feels comfortable, just don't rush it; at least give yourself two seconds between each count. As you count, relax each body part as much as you can and still remain upright, keep your eyes pointed slightly upwards beneath your eyelids, and focus solely on counting down to 1. You may lose track of where you were at as your mind wanders; that's not a problem, just do your best. Once you get to 1, stop.

You may or may not notice any difference at this point, but for me it was like my mind was opened, as sappy as it sounds. It was invigorating. I could feel my mind working, and I could focus pretty tightly on things. I've heard others, who are more used to being in a meditational state, don't notice anything, but ever since that first time it's very obvious to me when I get there. We're all individuals, so your mileage may vary.

From here, you find something to focus on. I generally go with one of two things: An object, starting with something simple, like a three dimensional shape or an apple, or focusing on a positive emotion or sensation. I often focus on my own mind while I meditate, other times I focus on the feeling of being happy (Or my spirit/Chi, whatever it is) by summoning that feeling and focusing on it, exploring it. I prefer sensations over imagery because I find it difficult to keep a solid object in my mind for more than a few moments but again, mileage, vary, etc.

From there, just focus on whatever you chose to focus on for the session for about fifteen minutes. If you start to get uncomfortable, don't be afraid to move a little bit or stop. It's not something you can master in one sitting.

When you're ready to quit, it's easy to train yourself to stop a particular way so interruptions don't ruin your meditation easily by counting up from 1 to 5. When you hit 3 start working your way out of your trance, getting ready to open your eyes, and at 5 open them completely.

Whenever you have a quarter of an hour to spare, just repeat those steps. Try to do it three times a day, but at least meditate before going to bed and when you wake up.


After a few weeks, once you've gotten used to counting down from 100, you can cut the count down to 50, and eventually down to 10. Try not to rush yourself. You are, after all, trying to relax and build your "zen". As you get more used to it you'll fall into meditation quicker and easier.

Now, a lot of people warn against allowing your mind to wander during meditation, but I've found that I can still be in a meditational state while exploring my emotions, questioning my decisions, or generally poking around with self-searching thoughts. It's much easier to slip out of meditation while doing this, but it's also very valuable when you can accomplish some self discovery while you're meditating. It's not easy, and you shouldn't make a habit of it as you may not get as "deep" as you could otherwise, but I don't think allowing your mind to wander from your focus during meditation is the evil it's often proclaimed to be. Then again, I could be wrong. In the least, I don't recommend prodding around your subconscious until you've had a few weeks of practice under your belt.

Good luck, and have fun!

[LordBucket]

a lot of people warn against allowing your mind to wander during meditation, but I've found that I can still be in a meditational state
while exploring my emotions, questioning my decisions, or generally poking around with self-searching thoughts.

 I don't think allowing your mind to wander from your focus during meditation is the evil it's often proclaimed to be

If one is sailing, it is a very different thing to see dolphins and steer closer to the dolphins to go visit and play with them than it is to have no sail and be tossed wildly wherever the waves may take you.

In one case, the boat is going where you want it to go. In the other, you are going where the boat wants to take you.

[Neonivek]

a lot of people warn against allowing your mind to wander during meditation, but I've found that I can still be in a meditational state
while exploring my emotions, questioning my decisions, or generally poking around with self-searching thoughts.

 I don't think allowing your mind to wander from your focus during meditation is the evil it's often proclaimed to be

It is one of those things that is different for everyone. Some people reach a meditative trance only by allowing their mind to wander (my personal assumption is that it gives them more to concentrate on).

Though the key is that having your mind wander during meditation is a natural occurrence and the thought that it is somehow "not supposed to happen" is often far more disturbing to the meditator then it is to meditation itself.

So honestly it is the belief that the wandering mind is antagonistic towards meditation that is more destructive then the actual wandering mind. Your mind will return on its own.

So yeah you are right, mind wandering from your focus during meditation isn't an "evil". So long as you haven't completely disappeared, as the exact opposite effect does happen.

As well the level of meditation isn't always singular, breaking meditation is also perfectly natural as well. Think of it as waking up from your sleep in the middle of the night, you often can immediately go back to sleep as if nothing occurred. Your goal isn't absolute meditation mastery anyhow.

[LordBucket]

Some people reach a meditative trance only by allowing their mind to wander

Mind you in terms of the discipline I am most acquainted in, that would be hypnosis.

I think you may be confused about what meditation is.


http://www.the-unscripted-self.com/zenmeditation.html

"it’s got nothing to do with hypnosis, which is concerned with putting one into a trance. Meditation is the very opposite. It is about trance breaking. About waking up."

http://www.vipassana.com/meditation/mindfulness_in_plain_english_4.php

"meditation is not a form of hypnosis. You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become unconscious. You are not trying to turn yourself into an emotionless vegetable. If anything, the reverse is true. You will become more and more attuned to your own emotional changes. You will learn to know yourself with ever- greater clarity and precision. In learning this technique, certain states do occur which may appear trance-like to the observer. But they are really quite the opposite."

Definition of trance, according to google

"A half-conscious state characterized by an absence of response to external stimuli, typically as induced by hypnosis or entered by a medium."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance
"Trance is still conventionally defined as a state of reduced consciousness"


I think you're incorrectly confusing trance states with meditative states. A hypnotic state is typically one of reduced awareness and control. This idea you're putting out there of "meditative trance" is basically a contradiction of terms. But this becomes difficult to explain because of the subtleties involved. For example, it's difficult for a third party, observing a meditator who might happen to be engaging in inward focus to the point of being unaware of external stimuli...to distinguish between that and somebody in a state of reduced consciousness. If someone is focusing on X to the the point that they cease to be aware of Y, is that "trance" or "meditation?" Well, yes...they may be in a state of reduced awareness of Y, but the intent is not the reduction of awareness, but the deliberate focus of awareness on X. Others in this thread have specifically mentioned mindfulness meditation, but even people who direct focus on a single thing, even if that thing is "emptiness" aren't actually trying to reduce their consciousness.

Think of it this way: if you hypnotize someone, that's not them meditating, correct? If somebody is sleeping, that's not them meditating, right? If somebody zones out on drugs...that's also not meditating, yes? These are all altered states of mind, but can we agree that these things are not meditation? Meditation is not a catch-all term to describe any arbitrary state of consciousness that isn't the ordinary waking consciousness of the average person.

I reiterate the definition for meditation that I gave on page one of this thread: "meditation is the deliberate and conscious direction of mental focus."

Now, I'll amend that to say, "meditation is the deliberate and conscious direction of your OWN mental focus." Again, if you hypnotize somebody else...that doesn't mean that they're now meditating.

Meditating is controlling your own mind. Deliberately. It's not just any altered state of mind. It might not particularly matter what you focus on...but if meditating is controlling your own mind...then "allowing your mind to wander" is very obviously not meditating. I think that bears repeating: if meditating is deliberate focus/direction/control of your mind...then it should be obvious that letting your mind do its own thing, whatever it wants, wander as it pleases...is clearly not deliberately controlling or focusing your mind.

[Darkmere]

Meditating is controlling your own mind. Deliberately. It's not just any altered state of mind. It might not particularly matter what you focus on...but if meditating is controlling your own mind...then "allowing your mind to wander" is very obviously not meditating. I think that bears repeating: if meditating is deliberate focus/direction/control of your mind...then it should be obvious that letting your mind do its own thing, whatever it wants, wander as it pleases...is clearly not deliberately controlling or focusing your mind.

This. This is what I meant by the imagery exercises... Imagining sitting on a beach because someone is telling you to do so has nothing to do with developing your own mental discipline. Thanks for saying that much better than I did.

[Neonivek]

I think you're incorrectly confusing trance states with meditative states.

Well no I am not. All of these people who are commenting on what hypnosis is... are actually getting it very wrong in fundamental ways. For example!

You are not trying to black out your mind so as to become unconscious

That isn't a required proponent of hypnosis either. Sombalance isn't the goal but rather one avenue one can go for.

Meditation is the very opposite. It is about trance breaking. About waking up

That is also a hypnosis technique and thus it envelops that too.

 

which is concerned with putting one into a trance

That is only a single avenue

Trance is still conventionally defined as a state of reduced consciousness

That is very interesting, compared that trance is also a state of intense concentration and awareness. Though that is why they split up trances into many categories with Sombelence (The total conscious remission of the mind) being what hypnosis is known for.

---

It helps that I am well aware of a wide medium of hypnosis and not just the most popular and common forms. Which has been developing for a very long time in both people's understanding as well as the techniques involved. As well as a deeper understanding of the psychology and mechanisms involved.

As well I just cut through fluff. Meditation is so old that it has enough fluff to fill the Grand Canyon, so I wouldn't be surprised that every form of it goes "We aren't about this, we are about something greater". Hypnosis has a lot of fluff too, and damaging too, so I cannot talk high and mighty about it either.

There is a major difference though between hypnosis and meditation. Hypnosis is a subset that bleeds into the other disciplines, mostly because hypnosis borrows a LOT from meditation even to the extent where using meditation for hypnosis or practicing hypnosis using meditation are actual techniques. Hypnosis is a form of meditation but meditation is not hypnosis.

I can only comment on where hypnosis meets general meditation. A defeatist attitude towards meditation would have the same effect as a defeatist attitude towards hypnosis, it would only serve as a long term barrier, while simple indiscipline can be trained out. Which to my knowledge many meditations are about letting go of certain notions.

Imagining sitting on a beach because someone is telling you to do so has nothing to do with developing your own mental discipline.

Which is true, that is a good argument against what I've been saying. Since meditation is an exercise for the mind.

All you would be doing if you were to meditate on other's recordings is build a weak mind. Meaning that while the techniques can be the same the applications are different.

Though I still think many of the general techniques still apply. Such as accepting disturbances.

[Eagleon]

Meditating is controlling your own mind. Deliberately. It's not just any altered state of mind. It might not particularly matter what you focus on...but if meditating is controlling your own mind...then "allowing your mind to wander" is very obviously not meditating. I think that bears repeating: if meditating is deliberate focus/direction/control of your mind...then it should be obvious that letting your mind do its own thing, whatever it wants, wander as it pleases...is clearly not deliberately controlling or focusing your mind.

Samu comes to mind, if you insist on setting your definition within eastern philosophies. By embracing the fact that you can let go of the sort of iron discipline meditation 'traditionally' requires, even doing something else at the same time, you're actually gaining more control, not less. Trying to wrestle your mind into focus without gaining some peace (control, if you like) with its need to wander and examine its environment is crazy to me, like trying to climb up the side of a staircase.

[Neonivek]

And according to my discipline, being overly critical on yourself breaks your concentration far more easily then simply accepting your mistakes and moving on.

Needing to rebuild meditation from scratch is far more difficult then breaking meditation and returning to it. Especially since breaking meditation can in fact strengthen the overall effect.

Trying to wrestle your mind into focus without gaining some peace (control, if you like) with its need to wander and examine its environment is crazy to me, like trying to climb up the side of a staircase

To me it is that fighting yourself is the antithesis of meditation. Meditation is freedom and not constraints. While some dogma can be required, strict dogma is an easy way to destroy it.

Making it sound more philosophical. Meditation is about working with yourself, when you are forcing yourself you are fighting, well, yourself. Only by obtaining peace of mind can one achieve that state. Calmness of Mind is not a required proponent.

Very harsh Zen Meditation though is more firmly grounded in outright brain washing. Using the body and mind's own exhaustion to enter a true meditative state without remission. Yet its effect and how difficult it can be achieve cannot be understated. It is a method of overcoming someone's own weaknesses assuming they can survive the rigorous exercises.

Though I don't suggest anyone go down that route. Brainwashing yourself until meditation works for you is something that never sits right with me, even though it is fairly common.